ASC Service numbers

[Ron Clifton]

On 10/08/2017 at 18:49, Gardenerbill said:

2 questions on these numbers:

 

1. Was there one set of numbers for the ASC at this time but with a different prefix for horse transport (T)?
2. When did they stop allocating these numbers (the M1 series begins at the start of September 1914).

On reading para 1899 of King's Regulations 1912 it appears that there was a single set of numbers for the whole of the ASC. Once the numbers reached 39,999 a new series would be started. It thus seems that the prefixes (of which there were many) denoted purely special classes or qualifications within the ASC and were not linked to particular runs of numbers. In peacetime there were prefixes of T for horse transport, M for mechanical transport and S for supply. There may also have been a further class, possibly R, for remounts.

 

Various references link the use of T1 to T4, M1 to M4 and S1 to S4 to the formation of the New Armies, which ties in with the September 1914 date, but I am not convinced that T1, M1, S1 = First New Army etc is a correct deduction from that, as some sources assert.

 

Good luck, but do have a close look at the Forum first, as a lot of this jigsaw has already been put together.

 

Ron

[Waggoner]

An interesting project! My observations suggest that the various pre-war reserve categories had their own series of numbers, e.g. CHT. I have been recording the different prefixes that were used. To date, my count is about 46!

 

All the best,

 

Gary

Edited 10 August , 2017 by Waggoner

[Knotty]

Hi Gardenerbill & Gary 

I believe that we were also going through a similar exercise last year with lists of prefix etc. As Ron said sifting through may help your project.

John

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Ron, Dai, Knotty and Waggoner,

I have searched the forum fairly extensively and found various topics with parts of the picture, what I would like to do is bring it all together but just for Mechanical Transport.

Thanks to Ron I think my initial questions on the early numbers are answered.

[Gardenerbill]

Next are the CMT and MS numbers

 

Special reserve Mechanical Transport CMT series

 

According to Micheal Young’s book these are Old Army Mechanical Specials [own series of numbers before 1915]:Worshop Foreman, Electricans, Drivers, Fitters & Turners, Blacksmiths, Wheelers.
Examples:
CMT/555 Pte William Foster, attested London 23rd October 1912, entered theatre (1) France 16th August 1914.
CMT/1761 Pte Henry Bunning, attested London 25th August 1913, entered theatre (1) France 14th August 1914.
CMT/3795 a/SSgt George Lambert Townsend, attested London 8th August 1914, entered theatre (1) France 23rd September 1914.

 

I don't have any specific questions on these just an assuption:

 

Once all the men with these numbers who were fit enough to serve had been called up no more of these numbers were allocated they seem to have been replaced by the MS series

 

Mechanical Specialist MS series

The MS series numbers were allocated throughout August 1914
Examples:
MS/119 Pte Thomas Henry Johns, attested London 8th August 1914 entered theatre (1) France 11th August 1914.
MS/662 Pte Lionel W Booth, attested Avonmouth 10th August 1914 entered theatre (1) France 17th August 1914.
MS/4700 Pte Frank Miles, attested Woolwich 7th August 1914 entered theatre (1) France 14th August 1914.

 

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by Gardenerbill

[Knotty]

20 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

Special reserve Mechanical Transport CMT series

I have in my collection, the medals of CMT/157 Sgt John

Herbert Ebers, attested London 7th August 1914, entered France 13th August 1914. His occupation was given as a London omnibus driver.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by Knotty

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Knotty I will add his details to my list.

[Gardenerbill]

Mechanical Transport M1 Series

 

The start of the new series of numbers coincided with Lord Kitchener’s call for volunteers to form his first Citizens Army so the new prefix introduced was M1.

Some of the early M1 numbers were allocated in August and early September at Aldershot for example:

M1/2806 Pte Charles Cooper Aldershot 25th August 1914

From the 24th September the M1 numbers were allocated at Grove Park when it opened for example:

M1/5493 Pte Bertie G Luxford Grove Park 25th September 1914 France 4th October 1914

The M1 numbers were allocated up to the beginning of November

 

This throws up some more questions:

 

1. Were the new numbers for all ASC sections prefixed accordingly i.e. M1, T1, R1 etc.?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, with the opening of Grove Park there are now two administrative centres, so were numbers allocated to each in blocks?

 

Edited 10 August , 2017 by Gardenerbill

[Gardenerbill]

Trawling through the MICs this morning it appears that the new series of numbers from 101 to 5403 were allocated for horse transport at Aldershot. The first MIC being T1/101 and the last T1/5403.

 

There are some exceptions such as M1/2806 (in post #10 above) but I believe these were probably transfers from Horse Transport to Mechanical Transport. The Grove Park numbers for Mechanical Transport start at M1/5404 a/S Sgt Jack Botterill.

 

My next task is to work out where the MT block ends and the next HT one starts.

 

Edit: I found more T1 MICs from 5000 up to 5403.

Edited 11 August , 2017 by Gardenerbill
Factual error

[david murdoch]

I've been looking at some ASC men in relation to their service with Motor Machine Gun Service  and Machine Gun Corps (Motors). In both motorcycle and armoured car batteries they were used as mechanics and drivers of support vehicles and in the case of the armoured car units drove those as well. These men were M.2/ numbers.

I've found that most (but not all) of them from the creation of MMGS were an integral part of these units rather than just "attached". These men were hand picked through the MMGS recruiting campaign and selection process and then recruited as ASC due to their prior skills and experience. Many of them are listed by name in the recruiting articles in The Motorcycle newspaper. Though they were attested ASC and have Grove Park on their forms. after basic training they went directly back to the MMG units. They were on ASC pay rates (about five times that of a Gunner). Many of them are noted as "well known" in motorcycling circles of the day. One other thing I picked up is some ranked A/Sgt on the medal rolls are actually Artificer Sergeant and not Acting Sergeant. From photos they were often cap badged MMGS or MGC(M), but wearing ASC shoulder titles. Attached is a rather tragic article. You can see he was an M.2 number enlisting November 1914.

As an aside this man's record survives, and in has some valuable information, as there is a sheet noting 11 ASC  men being allocated to 11th MMG Battery (full ASC compliment of fitters/drivers) and also the date indicates formation date for the Battery. Interestingly this list does not give their service numbers, but numbers presumably off some ledger of ASC men to go to MMGS  His file also contains several sheets typed witness statements and summary of the enquiry into the fatal accident.

 

Edited 11 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks David, I have added this man's details to my records. The M2 prefix replaced the M1 prefix during November 1914 and was used until some time around the end of 1916 and beginning of 1917 when they reverted to 'M'.

[Gardenerbill]

Just had a look at William Thorburn's service record and found the transfer list, the men were allocated consecutive numbers from M2/101382 Alexander T Brash to M2/101390 Arthur Midgley, I can't find J.L. Palmer though.

[david murdoch]

James L. Palmer was M2/101766. His disembarkation date on his 14/15 star roll is 8/7/1915. This matches the date some of the 11th Battery MMGS men, so he went to France with the battery.

I will add all these men on my 11th MMG Battery roll. I'll also spread out and look at the numbers above and below, as may produce service records showing attachments to other 

For 22nd Battery we have identified 7 ASC, but their numbers are not consecutive.

Kellet and Fielder were the mechanics - Artificer Sergeants.

 

A/Sgt Walter Rennie Kellett M2/106170 Army Service Corps.

Enlisted  14/06/1915 at Bisley.

Age 35, single

Residence Walton on Thames.

Profession Motor Engineer. (on 1911 Census Electrical Engineer)

Appointed  A/Sgt 08/09/1915 at MMGS Training Centre.

 

Fielder enlisted 25/05/1915 and appointed A/Sgt 05/09/1915 he was a well known motorcycle trials rider pre war (Factory rider for New Hudson Motorcycles)

Both certainly enlisted specifically to serve with MMGS. The September dates probably indicators when they were being assigned to 22nd Battery.

I'm looking for at least another 4, possibly more as they took 8 lorries to India  - more than the usual 4 or 5, and each normally had a No.1 and No.2 Driver.

Cordwell died and is buried in Rawalpindi - either from accident or more likely illness.

 

M2/106170	A/Sgt	Walter Rennie Kellett	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery	Commisioned RASC/I.A.R.O
M2/100503	Sgt.	Alfred James Fielder	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery
M2/102138	Private	Harry Albert Cutler	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery
M2/097864	Private	John Girdwood	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery
M2/115535	Private	Edgar William Davis	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery
M2/103063	Private	John Thornton Duncan	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery
M2/101516	Private	William Arthur Cordwell	22nd MMGS	Attd. 22nd MMG Battery	Died Rawalpindi  5/4/1918

Edited 12 August , 2017 by david murdoch

[Gardenerbill]

More good info David, I have added these details to my list of numbers.

[Waggoner]

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

More good info David, I have added these details to my list of numbers.

Great War Medals has a number of Stars to the ASC on their website and they include the date of entry into the theatre.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

Edited 14 August , 2017 by Waggoner

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Gary I will have a look at that tonight when I get home.

 

M1 Prefix Numbers

 

I have now found the end of the numbers allocated at Grove Park with M1 prefix. As previously stated they begin at M1/5404 a/S Sgt Jack Botterill and end at M1/9388 Pte Eric Lockwood. 9401 has a T2 prefix for horse transport.

 

[Gardenerbill]

M2 Prefix Numbers

9401 to 018399 were allocated to Horse transport, remounts and supply etc.

The M2 prefix numbers begin at 018401 in mid November and are still allocated at Grove Park.

Again there are M2 prefixes in the range 9401 to 018399 but I believe these are probably transfers.

[johnboy]

f you go to long long trail top left of this page enter prefixes in the search box and you will find many uses by ASC

[John Beech]

Morning

 

Minor additional point around T4/ prefix for ASC. In addition to being used for new army units, it was also used for the renumbering of TF Divisional Train. My grandfather and his brother were both pre war Territorials in the North Midland Divisional Train (later 46th Divisional Train).

 

My grandfather went from being 1201 Driver Thomas A. Beech to being T4/244638 and his brother went from being 1275 Driver Charles H. Beech to being T4/244636

 

Those members of the Train involved with supplies were given a S4/ prefix to their new numbers

 

Regards

 

John

Edited 17 August , 2017 by John Beech

[Knotty]

Hi Gb

Going back to CMT numbers, here's a snippet that might be of interest 

http://www.ewt.org.uk/survivors/charles-barbee-cmt16-army-service-corps/

 

John

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Knotty,

That's the first number less than 100 that I have seen, I was beginning to wonder if they started the number sequences at 100, obviously not, at least not in the case of the CMT numbers.

[Gardenerbill]

M2 Prefix Numbers

The first block of M2 prefixed serial numbers runs from M2/018401 Pte Charles H Fowler to M2/022400 Pte John MacLean.
Numbers 022401 to 031400 were allocated to horse transport, supply remounts etc. interestingly these are now prefixed T3, S3, R3 etc.
Whereas the next set of MT numbers starting at 031400 are still prefixed M2.

[Waggoner]

I believe that the pre-war, "C" class reserve numbers started at 1. This would be for the CMT and CHT.

 

All the best,

 

Gary

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Waggoner, just did a quick search on number 1 and there is a T/1 and T1/1 as well.

[Gardenerbill]

M2 prefix numbers second block
The next block of M2 numbers begins with M2/031401 Pte John McIlhenny. From Mid November M2 prefix numbers begin to be allocated at other centres; Luton, Bulford, Reading and Bury St Edmunds. The block ends with M2/035400 Pte Ernest Charles Wren attested Bury St Edmonds 18th February 1915.