TE Lawrence in Mesopotamia?

[gothic69]

There is a site on Lawrence that allows one to track his whereabouts almost day by day (especially in 1918 using his pocket diary). I enclose the link. http://telawrence.info/telawrenceinfo/life/chron_1918.shtml

He certainly does not appear to have visited Mesopotamia in 1918 ,1919 or 1920. Even when employed by the FO and advising Churchill on possible settlements in Mesopotamia he never actually went near the place even though he visited the ME as part of his work. So David how could your Grandfather have met him? There are some possibilities. One question worth asking is how did LAMB return to the UK and when? One route some units followed was to drive to Amman in Jordon and then take one of a number of posible routes to Egypt where they would take ship home (the other was to drive North to Damascus where it was possible to entrain for Jerusalem and change for Cairo). Lawrence was in Amman in 1920 and Cairo in late 1918 and also in 1919 and 1920. Could this photo be in say Amman? I suspect that it is post 1918 as the wheel on the RR on the right of the photo appears to be solid suggesting a post war model (although it could just be the nemesis of many a historian - the field modification).

Hi centurion,

I think you could have a point there over the wheels, they look like they are fitted with NAP (Natural Air Pressure)tyres-reconized by triangular wedges in the edge. These where fitted to the 1920 RR chassis which were retrofitted to the 1914 RR chassis.This could date the photo from 1920 to 1921

Ian

[david murdoch]

Hi centurion,

I think you could have a point there over the wheels, they look like they are fitted with NAP (Natural Air Pressure)tyres-reconized by triangular wedges in the edge. These where fitted to the 1920 RR chassis which were retrofitted to the 1914 RR chassis.This could date the photo from 1920 to 1921

Ian

Ian.

For sure my grandfather came home very early in 1920. Possibly the "solid looking wheels" are steel plates fitted on the inside for attaching chains - these were used in muddy conditions, in the same manner as snow chains. It was a common modification developed in France, and something they took to Mesopotamia. These particular cars were ex RNAS and also saw active service in France with MGC(M) before shipping to Mespot. Note on the photo below the outer wheel at least is still a spoked wheel. They are also to be seen in use in Mesopotamia in a couple of the pics in Roosevelt's book. Tyres seemed to be pretty much pic and mix - it's not unusual to see cars carrying up to six spares, and various different patterns. On the original pic the car under the tarp looks like it's running on all baldies!

The original pic, I posted certainly looks like winter time - due to the clothing, and also thier boots are covered in mud! Could be in Kurdistan.

[gothic69]

Hi David,

You are probably right but most of the photos i have the chains on the rear wheels being 4x2 drive where you need the traction

[gothic69]

David

This could be an 8 LAB car predecessor to your 8 LAMB in France (note army only modifications)

And here could be the same car now in the Tank Corp's ACC whereabouts unknown

very unlikey I know but 1914 RNAS cars were transfered to the army LAMB in 1915, given new 1920 chassis then used by TC ACC then given to the RAF ACC were used up to 1939 then given Fordson chassis and used throughout ww2

[gothic69]

Here's what NAP tyres look like on a Crossley AC Rolls royces are the same

Ian

[david murdoch]

Certainly looks like the tyres - going by the centre section pattern - its quite distinct.

I haven't seen them fitted to a Rolls from this period - None of the other 8th L.A.M.B photos have them. I'm sure the photo can be no later than autumn 1919 - so maybe a proto type trial?

David

[Ron]

Lawrence was in Mesopotamia for a short time when negotiations with the Turks over the surrender of Kut were being conducted. He was one of three Britons who went into the Turkish lines to negotiate terms with Khalill Pasha, the Turkish C-in-C. Aubrey Herbert M.P. was one of the delegation and did most of the talking since he had met Khalil at a British Embassy dance before the war in Constantinople. He was also the only British Turkish speaker present. Herbert was authorised to offer £2M in exchange for the garrison but the Turks refused and as they were in the driving seat, practically dictated terms. Colonel Beach, the second member of the British team, was not a Turkish speaker and could only contribute comments through a translator. Lawrence, the final member of the team, had hurt his leg at the start of the journey and could not ride and only arrived at the venue after the discussion had more or less finished.

The sole account we have of the meeting comes from Herbert who found the whole situation upsetting - the flies, the blazing heat and the sight of bodies lying on the river bank or racing downstream in the swift current - and the instruction to attempt to offer money. It was disappointing from the British point of view. Khalil was angry that Townshend had destroyed his guns - the only concession the Turks allowed was to permit a British ship to go up to Kut and bring back the British and Indian sick - the rest had to march into captivity. More details in my book on the Mesopotamian campaign - Ron Wilcox: Battles on the Tigris. Pen and Sword Books.

As far as I know, that is the only mention of Lawrence in Mesoputamia during the war and it iwas not very inspiring.

Ron

[RRAC]

David,

Great photo! I've looked through my Rolls Royce Armoured Car image collection and came across two photos of cars with similar turret modifications, located outside of France.

The first photo is from a contact sheet of images that David Fletcher at Bovington sent to me. This came without any source data so we are left to simply note that the Bovington photo appears to date from after the war as all of the car's wheels have been replaced with solid rims. The side of the bonnet has what appears to be a "HMAC" car name and possibly a unit identification number on it - unfortunately too difficult to make out in the tiny, low-resolution copy that I have. You may want to visit Bovington to take a look at the original photo.

The second image was identified as having been taken in East Africa during the "Tanganyikan Guerrilla East African Campaign". It is the only photo that I have ever seen of an armoured car in this theater that has this turret modification - so I consider its identification to be somewhat suspect, pending confirmation.

I for one would very much appreciate the opportunity to see your collection of armoured car photos that your grandfather took. Is it posted somewhere online?

PS - Unfortunately I can't seem to get the forum's attachment system to work even though the images are well below the forum's size limit. I am new to this forum so I may be doing it wrong but when I try to upload, the system just sits there churning and saying that the upload is in progress without ever completing the upload. - I would be happy to email these images directly to you if you contact me via personal email.

Sincerely,

Mark Cowan

[centurion]

He was also the only British Turkish speaker present.

Leachman, who guided the group through the Turkish lines to the meeting was fluent in Arabic and Turkish. At the time he was of equal rank to Lawrence and had much more experience with both the Turks and the Arabs (having done undercover work in the region since 1910). One wonders therefore why it was Lawrance doing the speaking. I suspect that TE had convinced all that he was the outstanding expert etc. They were to be disapointed.

[david murdoch]

Leachman, who guided the group through the Turkish lines to the meeting was fluent in Arabic and Turkish. At the time he was of equal rank to Lawrence and had much more experience with both the Turks and the Arabs (having done undercover work in the region since 1910). One wonders therefore why it was Lawrance doing the speaking. I suspect that TE had convinced all that he was the outstanding expert etc. They were to be disapointed.

I'm sure it was to do with the jockying for influence between the different groups higher up (London/Egypt/India), and probably the same politics that kept Leachman sidelined in India for a while when he should have been back into Mesopotamia at the start of the conflict.

Lawrence was just playing part ... Leachman was the real thing!

[Adrian Roberts]

Sorry to go back to basics here, but what does LAMB and LAB stand for?

I'm guessing Light Armoured Mechanised Brigade?

[Ron]

Leachman, who guided the group through the Turkish lines to the meeting was fluent in Arabic and Turkish. At the time he was of equal rank to Lawrence and had much more experience with both the Turks and the Arabs (having done undercover work in the region since 1910). One wonders therefore why it was Lawrance doing the speaking. I suspect that TE had convinced all that he was the outstanding expert etc. They were to be disapointed.

Hello Centurian

I was interested in reading your post about the meeting in the Turkish lines and I wondered where you got the information about Leachman's part in the meeting. Neither Herbert's nor the Official History account mention Leachman but only Herbert, Colonel Beach, who was head of the Intelligence Branch in Mesopotamia, and Lawrence. The meeting was foredoomed to failure since the Turks had made up their minds about the outcome before it had begun and Khalil had already had discussions with Townshend on his launch on the Tigris.

Ron

[centurion]

I was interested in reading your post about the meeting in the Turkish lines and I wondered where you got the information about Leachman's part in the meeting. Neither Herbert's nor the Official History account mention Leachman but only Herbert, Colonel Beach, who was head of the Intelligence Branch in Mesopotamia, and Lawrence.

Its in Leachman's biography. It would seem that the party was not capable of making their own way through the Turkish lines. Leachman had been operating in the area for some time and had the necessary experience and knowledge, possibly he wasn't in the meeting - just delivered them to it and brought them back. My thought was if Leachman could get them there, spoke the language, knew the situation on the ground, knew the Turks etc - why did they need Lawrence?

Lawrence and Leachman did not get on and after the war when it was mooted that Leachman might write his memoires Lawrence wrote to his publisher suggesting that ways be found to block this. It might have been a fear of Leachman 'stealing his thunder' or it might be that some of Lawrences solo camel journies described in 7PoW sound suspiciously like those the Leachman made before the war - who knows. In the event Leachman was not a natural author and was in any case killed near Falujah in an ambush shortly afterwards.

[david murdoch]

Sorry to go back to basics here, but what does LAMB and LAB stand for?

I'm guessing Light Armoured Mechanised Brigade?

L.A.B - Light Armoured Battery

There were also A.M.B s - Armoured Motor Battery

L.A.M.B - Light Armoured Motor Battery

[Adrian Roberts]

L.A.B - Light Armoured Battery

There were also A.M.B s - Armoured Motor Battery

L.A.M.B - Light Armoured Motor Battery

Thanks David

Someone clearly came up with the obvious design for the badge!