TE Lawrence in Mesopotamia?

[david murdoch]

Here’s a photo I have from Mesopotamia that’s a bit of a mystery. It’s one sent home by my grandfather, probably in a letter, and later rejoined his own photographs. The armoured cars are 8th L.A.M.B. (note extended turret cupolas) and I’m guessing the three NCOs are too. I’m guessing also at 1918 (as 8th L.A.M.B. arrived in Mespot around Christmas 1917) – the cars are still dark painted and it’s cooler season, going by the clothes, and muddy boots. My grandfather is the one seated second left and wearing the single breasted tunic (not showing his stripes). It’s an interesting (and casual) mix of officers and other ranks. Not sure who the officer in the centre is - perhaps their CO. The main point of interest though is the chap marked with the cross – on the back of the photo he is noted as “Col Lawrence”. Would anyone care to venture if this is T.E.? According to my mother, my grandfather met him at some point in Mesopotamia – he was apparently with one or other of the L.A.M.B units for a short while (possibly to gain more knowledge of cars/tactics) He was spoken of not in very glowing terms – he did not impress them at all! Whoever he is he certainly looks out of place with the rest of the group. Note the guy (officer also?) on the extreme right of the picture – he’s got his topi on sideways – obviously taking the Micky!

I’d be very interested to hear thoughts and ideas.

David

[Ron]

Lawrence was in Mesopotamia for few days in April 1916 to assist in the negotiations being carried on by Colonel Beach and Aubrey Herbert with the Turks over the offer by the British to ransom the garrison of Kut el Amara on the grounds that the Turks did not have the proper facilities either to transport the surrendered soldiers to Turkey or look after them properly. These negotiations failed and sadly many of the garrison died of neglect while in Turkish hands.

As far as I know, that is the only time Lawrence was in Mesopotamia during the war for later on he was busy in Arabia assisting the Arab tribes to fight the Turks.

Ron

[Pete1052]

If I'm not mistaken Lawrence spent some time in Mesopotamia after the war.

[ian turner]

I do not think it looks like him?

Ian

[centurion]

Lawrence was viewed with some distaste by the British command in Mesopotamia having put up the backs of many when he was there in 1916 when it appears that he promised much and delivered little and was regarded as somewhat arrogant. Lawrence and Leachman (who took Lawrence through the Turkish lines) did not hit it off and there seems to have been a degree of jealousy on Lawrence's part (after the war he expressed considerable worry tht Leachman mught publish an account of the Arab rising that might eclipse/contradict his SPoW and asked his publishers to attempt to block any such work - however Leachman was a lousy writer) so it would seem unlikely that he would visit Mesopotamia for lessons on using ACs in the desert as this was very much Leachman's responsibility.

Thats a nice photo. I'm interested in the extension on top of one of the turrets - I've only seen this on post war photos.

[tom compton]

nice photo david but i dont think it is lawrence .lawrence had a very long face with a strong jaw . tom

[david murdoch]

Lawrence was viewed with some distaste by the British command in Mesopotamia having put up the backs of many when he was there in 1916 when it appears that he promised much and delivered little and was regarded as somewhat arrogant. Lawrence and Leachman (who took Lawrence through the Turkish lines) did not hit it off and there seems to have been a degree of jealousy on Lawrence's part (after the war he expressed considerable worry tht Leachman mught publish an account of the Arab rising that might eclipse/contradict his SPoW and asked his publishers to attempt to block any such work - however Leachman was a lousy writer) so it would seem unlikely that he would visit Mesopotamia for lessons on using ACs in the desert as this was very much Leachman's responsibility.

Thats a nice photo. I'm interested in the extension on top of one of the turrets - I've only seen this on post war photos.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been curious about this photo for some time, and have enquired of both Tank Museum (David Fletcher) and the TEL society amongst others in the past - the general consensus is that it is not Lawrence, so I'm still no further forward with it. The photo was definatly marked as such from that period, and sent home, and as I mentioned before my grandfather apparently refered to "Lawrence" in rather unflattering terms - certainly no hero worship there! Could be the photograph is actually post 1918 (my grandfather was there until 1920) Unfortunatly the 8th L.A.M.B war diaries from 1918 on are "missing" from the records, so no clues there either.

Centurion.

Regarding the turret modifications - these are standard admiralty turrets that were modified at the MGC depot at Camiers (my grandfather's car - well the one he pinched the makers plate off was originally a RNAS vehicle.) In my travels, these are the only ones like this I've seen in photos from Mesopotamia. There are a couple of pics in "War Cars" of this type of modification in use in France. The ones under the tarps look to be the same hight. The other pictures I have, unfortunatly not one has a visible number or name in the usual place, but there are four distinct groups of cars. There are several with the extended turrets, which I am taking to be his own unit. Some with unmodified admiralty turrets, which match with pictures from IWM archive and War in the Garden of Eden, look to be 14th L.A.M.B One photo of a car which looks to have asbestos cement cladding on the turret, and cab and maybe 13th L.A.M.B (ref similar pic in War Cars). Then I have one tiny unrelated photo of another group of cars in the desert - these have admiralty turrets, but with small box extension above the turret top hatch - I've seen these also in Western front photos, but never anywhere else.

In the absence of his service record I am not sure if my grandfather was in any other car units - or even shipped to Mesopotamia with 8th. I know (minus dates) he went to Marseille "by rail", Malta, Bombay then to Basra, on his way there. With certainty he was with 8th from July 1918 until demob in 1920, but the three above mentioned units worked closely together, and became L.A.M.B Brigade based in Bahgdad

[centurion]

I've looked hard and cannot see when Lawrence would have had time to visit LAMB. Captain Kermit (I kid you not) Roosevelt (son ot the more famous Teddy) was attached to LAMB and he reports first meeting with Lawrence in Egypt on his way back to Europe at the end of the Mesopotamia campaign so it seems unlikely that TEL did ever visit LAMB. Interestingly the man marked with an X does look somewhat like Kermit (not the green one). The man next to him also resembles Lance Corporal Scott (another American, which would explain the hat) who had been Col Leachman's driver and was also attached to LAMB. Col. Leachman himself was attached to LAMB in time for the actions at Kirkuk. This brings up a thought - Leachman (known as "OC Desert") had at the time a reputation as wide as Lawrence for his living with the Arabs, instigating aspects of the Arab revolt (as early as 1912) tremendous solo camel journeys and leading Arab irregulars in the desert (unfortunately he made the mistakes of not being able to write well, not looking glamorous, annoying Gertrude Bell and, above all, getting killed at a fake road block near Falujah in 1921 [the more things change the more they are the same] so his reputation waned as Lawrences waxed). Could it have been Leachman that your grandfather met annd the story metamorphosed over time as such things can?

[mastermindmichel]

That's not T.E. as far as I am concerned.

[centurion]

That's not T.E. as far as I am concerned.

I thought that what I'd been saying!

[mastermindmichel]

I thought that what I'd been saying!

I am sorry, Centurion.

I did not know I was not allowed to have my own opinion.

It was just my reaction to David Murdoch's question: "Would anyone care to venture if this is T.E.?"

That's all, really.

Please accept my humblest apologies, Centurion.

[ian turner]

So we're all agreed then?

Ian

[mastermindmichel]

So we're all agreed then?

Ian

Sounds like it to me, Ian!

[centurion]

mastermindmichel

"I am double plated proof 'gainst sarcasm".

The positioning (sequence) of your posting made it seem as if you were replying to my post but hadn't read it. I misunderstood - it happens - sorry

[mastermindmichel]

mastermindmichel

"I am double plated proof 'gainst sarcasm".

The positioning (sequence) of your posting made it seem as if you were replying to my post but hadn't read it. I misunderstood - it happens - sorry

I hadn't read it, Centurion!

I was looking at T.E. Lawrence-pictures on the world wide web when your posting came through, and I did not see it before I posted my own posting.

There was some mix up obviously. I misunderstood (as well).

I am (really! and truly!) sorry.

P.S. "double plated proof 'gainst sarcasm"

Where did you get it and what did it cost?

[Max]

I agree that it is probablt not Lawrence, however I do think that the shape of the face is very similar.

[ian turner]

To compare

[Max]

Whoops...I didn't read your post correctly I was comparing the man on the extreme left of the picture with his hands on his hips.

Andy

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

My family also had there own Lawrence story which on closer inspection failed to meet the test.

My Grand father served with the Camel Corps and its posible he did meet Lawrence but not probable, only the family story was he had and did.

I asked him about this before he passed and he said no he had never meet Lawrence or saw him.

What had happened to discrible what he had done in the desert was to compare his story to what the people saw in the book and later the movie to make it easyer for the family to understand what he was doing in Egypt and palestine like riding a camel and fighting the turks like lawrence of arabia.

The family mistook the words "like Lawrence" to mean with Lawrence. and the story then went out of control. It was never changed because all understood what was meant when his photo's came out of his mates and my GF on there camels.

This is not to mean your relations story is incorrect only these old stories can get out of control over the years. This is just another view.

S.B

[david murdoch]

I've looked hard and cannot see when Lawrence would have had time to visit LAMB. Captain Kermit (I kid you not) Roosevelt (son ot the more famous Teddy) was attached to LAMB and he reports first meeting with Lawrence in Egypt on his way back to Europe at the end of the Mesopotamia campaign so it seems unlikely that TEL did ever visit LAMB. Interestingly the man marked with an X does look somewhat like Kermit (not the green one). The man next to him also resembles Lance Corporal Scott (another American, which would explain the hat) who had been Col Leachman's driver and was also attached to LAMB. Col. Leachman himself was attached to LAMB in time for the actions at Kirkuk. This brings up a thought - Leachman (known as "OC Desert") had at the time a reputation as wide as Lawrence for his living with the Arabs, instigating aspects of the Arab revolt (as early as 1912) tremendous solo camel journeys and leading Arab irregulars in the desert (unfortunately he made the mistakes of not being able to write well, not looking glamorous, annoying Gertrude Bell and, above all, getting killed at a fake road block near Falujah in 1921 [the more things change the more they are the same] so his reputation waned as Lawrences waxed). Could it have been Leachman that your grandfather met annd the story metamorphosed over time as such things can?

It's very possible my grandfather met Leachman, and he certainly recalled Roosevelt who was attached to 14th L.A.M.B He was involved in the action near Ana (Anha) to rescue Col Tennant RFC. As per 8th L.A.M.B's war diary it was thier CO and two sections (four cars) who carried out the rescue. This action is also recounted in Roosevelt's book. At one point they were only about 50 miles from the present Syrian border, and flights over to Mespot were common.

Luckily for me, he (my grandfather) kept a note of all the places he went - listed on the back of his girlfriend's (later to be my grandmother) photo... a lot of these places being the same "trouble spots" in today's news! He was also in Mosul and Kirkuk and back to Kurdistan in 1919.

It's still a puzzle why the chap in the photo should marked as "Lawrence", bearing in mind this photo was marked as such and sent home at that time. In addition he clearly spoke to my mother about Lawrence (back in the 1930's -1940's) Specifically he mentioned that Lawrence was not well liked, and an incident where one of thier units sentries very nearly shot Lawrence.

Certainly Leachman was a much bigger figure in Mesopotamia than Lawrence, and seems much more like the "real thing" compared to Lawrence. Lawrence wrote some pretty nasty stuff about him (after he was dead).

[david murdoch]

To compare

Here's a picture of Lawrence in uniform, and also one of Kermit Roosevelt. The IWM has a couple of good pictures of Roosevelt in Mesopotamia.

[Pete1052]

The following letter by Lawrence to the Editor of the Times inspires the feeling of deja vu all over again. The more things change....

All Souls College

July 22 [1920]

Sir,

In this week's debate in the Commons on the Middle East a veteran of the House expressed surprise that the Arabs of Mesopotamia were in arms against us despite our well-meant mandate. His surprise has been echoed here and there in the Press, and it seems to me based on such a misconception of the new Asia and the history of the last five years, that I would like to trespass at length on your space and give my interpretation of the situation.

The Arabs rebelled against the Turks during the war not because the Turk Government was notably bad, but because they wanted independence. They did not risk their lives in battle to change masters, to become British subjects or French citizens, but to win a show of their own.

Whether they are fit for independence or not remains to be tried. Merit is no qualification for freedom. Bulgars, Afghans, and Tahitans have it. Freedom is enjoyed when you are so well armed, or so turbulent, or inhabit a country so thorny that the expense of your neighbour's occupying you is greater than the profit. Feisal's Government in Syria has been completely independent for two years, and has maintained public security and public services in its area.

Mesopotamia has had less opportunity to prove its armament. It never fought the Turks, and only fought perfunctorily against us. Accordingly, we had to set up a war-time administration there. We had no choice; but that was two years ago, and we have not yet changed to peace conditions. Indeed, there are yet no signs of change. 'Large reinforcements', according to the official statement, are now being sent there, and our garrison will run into six figures next month. The expense curve will go up to 50 million pounds for this financial year, and yet greater efforts will be called for from us as the Mesopotamian desire for independence grows.

It is not astonishing that their patience has broken down after two years. The Government we have set up is English in fashion, and is conducted in the English language. So it has 450 British executive officers running it, and not a single responsible Mesopotamian. In Turkish days 70 per cent of the executive civil service was local. Our 80,000 troops there are occupied in police duties, not in guarding the frontiers. They are holding down the people. In Turkish days the two army corps in Mesopotamia were 60 per cent Arab in officers, 95 per cent in other ranks. This deprivation of the privilege of sharing the defence and administration of their country is galling to the educated Mesopotamians. It is true we have increased prosperity - but who cares for that when liberty is in the other scale? They waited and welcomed the news of our mandate, because they thought it meant Dominion self-government for themselves. They are now losing hope in our good intentions.

A remedy? I can see a cure only in immediate change of policy. The whole logic of the present thing looks wrong. Why should Englishmen (or Indians) have to be killed to make the Arab Government in Mesopotamia, which is the considered intention of his Majesty’s Government? I agree with the intention, but I would make the Arabs do the work. They can. My little experience in helping to set up Feisal showed me that the art of government wants more character than brains.

I would make Arabic the Government language. This would impose a reduction of the British staff, and a return to employment of the qualified Arabs. I would raise two divisions of local volunteer troops, all Arabs, from the senior divisional general to the junior private. (Trained officers and trained N.C.O.'s exist in thousands.) I would entrust these new units with the maintenance of order, and I would cause to leave the country every single British soldier, every single Indian soldier. These changes would take 12 months, and we should then hold of Mesopotamia exactly as much (or as little) as we hold of South Africa or Canada. I believe the Arabs in these conditions would be as loyal as anyone in the Empire, and they would not cost us a cent.

I shall be told that the idea of brown Dominions in the British Empire is grotesque. Yet the Montagu scheme and the Milner scheme are approaches to it, and the only alternative seems to be conquest, which the ordinary Englishman does not want, and cannot afford.

Of course, there is oil in Mesopotamia, but we are no nearer that while the Middle East remains at war, and I think if it is so necessary for us, it could be made the subject of a bargain. The Arabs seem willing to shed their blood for freedom; how much more their oil!

T. E. Lawrence

[yellow]

Its a shame the photo isnt clear enough so we can see the shoulder straps to see if the man in question is wearing the correct rank insignia.

I am not familiar with the uniforms that the men of the LAMBS wore but did the officers wear OR's uniforms like infantry officers in F&F? It seams the flaps on the jacket pockets are not for an officers uniform. If Lawrence did dress up as an OR one would assume he documented it.

Steve.

[centurion]

There is a site on Lawrence that allows one to track his whereabouts almost day by day (especially in 1918 using his pocket diary). I enclose the link. http://telawrence.info/telawrenceinfo/life/chron_1918.shtml

He certainly does not appear to have visited Mesopotamia in 1918 ,1919 or 1920. Even when employed by the FO and advising Churchill on possible settlements in Mesopotamia he never actually went near the place even though he visited the ME as part of his work. So David how could your Grandfather have met him? There are some possibilities. One question worth asking is how did LAMB return to the UK and when? One route some units followed was to drive to Amman in Jordon and then take one of a number of posible routes to Egypt where they would take ship home (the other was to drive North to Damascus where it was possible to entrain for Jerusalem and change for Cairo). Lawrence was in Amman in 1920 and Cairo in late 1918 and also in 1919 and 1920. Could this photo be in say Amman? I suspect that it is post 1918 as the wheel on the RR on the right of the photo appears to be solid suggesting a post war model (although it could just be the nemesis of many a historian - the field modification).

[centurion]

P.S. "double plated proof 'gainst sarcasm"

Where did you get it and what did it cost?

Its a quote from one of the 'Revenge Tragedies' of the early 17th century that stuck in my memory many many years after having read some of them but which one I can't recollect.