The Welsh at Mametz Wood 9 July 1916

[rendellers]

Hi

Tony

re # 146 could you let me know what tape you were listening to if it is commercially available?

Bernard

Great thread

I don't think this set of photos will show at the moment due to the upgrade hiccups but the first one was taken from climbing up the bank

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40812977@N03/sets/72157622045592252/

Many Thanks

Lindsey

[geraint]

Having seen Christopher Williams's painting of The Welsh at Mametz (I'm not able to do the ITboffin thingamyjigs and post a copy here), I've a few questions.

Was he there himself?

Did he have a specific location and action in mind?

Are the soldier insignia generic and hidden or do they refer to specific units?

Did he have specific individuals/portraits in mind?

Who commissioned him to do the painting?

[Bernard_Lewis]

Not an expert but I understand he was commissioned by David Lloyd George. He went to the wood in November 1916, his first visit as far as I know.

He was also 'given' a soldier to use as a model. I've only seen small scale versions of the painting which is in the National Gallery of Wales at Cardiff, I think. I don't know if its on display. When I've looked unit badges are not very obvious but I stand to be corrected.

No idea whether he painted a specifc location.

Bernard

[MBrockway]

Here you go ...

Cheers,

Mark

[geraint]

Thats the one Mark,

Thanks Bernard. Do you think that it's representative of any action that took place there? The welsh lines are very hemmed together in both mid and background. Would such a concentration of troops been realistic in the woods? My reading of war diaries and memoires suggest a far less concentrated action.

[Bernard_Lewis]

There was a certain amount of bayonet fighting in the wood. That said I would be surprised if the attackers/defenders were quite so packed; but I'm guessing, of course. Surprised to see the lack of helmets on the German side too?

Bernard

[Kevin O'Marah]

http://www.cwmbran.info/irving_jones.htm

He though, `Thank you, mother, I've had enough.`..

Kevin

[geraint]

Nice little summary though!

[huwrevans]

You informed chaps probably already know, but thought I'd let others know that "Up to Mametz" is back in print.

Just received my copy from Amazon.

Hwyl

Huw

[Bernard_Lewis]

Good that its back in print though I also think it was available as a free download?

Can't beat a book, though!

Bernard

[geraint]

As the thread is up again - I found this in Yr Adlais newspaper for 24 Oct 1917. Thought you might like to share it. It's for a Ruthin man Jack Ellis Roberts CWGC reports him killed opn 12. 7. at Mametz Wood though his friend names 10th in the poem). I've no idea who 'Friend' is, though it may be the same man who wrote to his widow.

Death of Private Jack Ellis Roberts by a friend

I’ll tell you of a friend I lost

The best man I ever had.

He died for his King and Country

Tho’ he was just a lad.

We fought in Flanders side by side

The whole long winter through.

It was our way to share alike

Whatever we may do.

On listening point or sentry go

We’d always work together;

And many an awful night we spent

Through that rough wintry weather.

We shared each other’s troubles

We shared each other’s joys;

And when the news would come from home

Together we read as boys.

At Mametz Wood I lost my pal

You surely must have heard

Of the glorious attack that took place

By the gallant 23^rd.

Midst choking fumes of ludlite

And the roar of a thousand guns

How from that line we strove all night

To drive the away the Huns.

We charged their trench at midnight

On the 10^th day of July

And ne’er will I forget the sight

Of that eventful day.

The gates of hell had opened it seemed

And with our battle cry

“Kitchener – you dogs –

We want to avenge or die.”

We beat them back, but the price we paid

Caused many bitter tears –

To flow for the lads that fell that day

From the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

That pal of mine was killed outright

By a shell as we left the trench;

He now is sleeping his last long sleep

In the blood sodden soil of the French.

And when my prayers I say at night,

To him my thoughts go back;

And I pray that God may rest in peace

The soul of my good pal Jack.

[Bernard_Lewis]

I think the poem brings home the effect that Mametz Wood (and war in general) has on men who were 'pals' until being separated forever by the chance (or mischance) of war.

Thanks Geraint.

And remembering Jack Ellis Roberts.

Bernard

[LarsA]

As for so many of the casualties of Mametz wood, the MIC of Pte 25115 J E Roberts, RWF bears the note "KIA between 10 & 12/7/16". CWGC usually has the latter date, at least on the casualties I have had reason to check.

Regarding "Up to Mametz", I just ordered the new edition with the added material by Jonothon Riley. Unfortunately not quick enough as it is out of stock on Amazon...

ATB,

Lars

[Hywyn]

Lovely poem Geraint.

I see that the painting a few posts back is the frontspiece of the book that Huw and Lars refer to above.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Up-Mametz-Llewelyn-Wyn-Griffith/dp/1848843534/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290461317&sr=1-1

Hywyn

[Bernard_Lewis]

Its on my list for Santa...

Bernard

[LarsA]

Good book that. One idea I have is to annotate some of the soldiers mentioned in "Up to Mametz". Not always easy, as the names might be a bit altered. I caretake one trio and plaque to a man easily identified by name and date, and have found a few of the others. Perhaps a thread of it's own and a team effort...? Will try to start one on the next few days.

Another one - not mentioned in the book- is to Pte William Caucutt, 1st London Welsh, who was KIA 10/7/16 at Mametz. RIP both.

/Lars

[geraint]

Thanks for the note on the MIC Lars (I've finally got to take that photo for you!) Can I propose Lars as an honorourary Welshman for his enthusiasm and interest? Perhaps a celebratory pint in Skindles Lars . Thanks for the comments on the poem lads!

Up to Mametz was available as a download - and thats the copy that I use. Didn't Hywyn post it on this thread? Still a book is a joyous object in its own right.

How feasible would it be to gather the names of all that were killed and wounded? It's about 4,000 names in all of which a third were deaths. Would it be pertinent?

[Bernard_Lewis]

I think it would be a real labour of love for someone. Those killed in action can be spotted fairly easily on SDGW, I guess, though died of wounds would be more tricky. I recently looked at a chap that I thought had DOW after Third Ypres but found that he'd been wounded ages before and had DOW while convalescing in India! So you can't go by a (close) date alone.

The wounded - phew! No idea how you could ever get all those.

Bernard

[larney]

I have the makings of a database of all of the killed of the 38th Division (some 7,475 so far). The first Somme casualties look to have been the three men of the 38th Trench Mortar Battery who were killed/ died on 30 June 1916. The last of a large block of men who died within a close timescale is around 23 July 1916. (Obviously many men died of wounds suffered at Mametz in the days, weeks, sometimes months, afterwards). As Bernard says, it would be very difficult to get the preise list of casualties, as many of the men who died of wounds after the fighting at Mametz Wood could well have been wounded while in the Fleurbaix or Hebuterne sectors.

There were several men also killed at the end of July while the Division was in the Hebuterne Sector, who would have been survivors of Mametz.

It looks like about 1,179 were actually killed during the immediate period of the attack on Mametz Wood, although included in that are men killed on the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th July preceding the attack, and many on the dates leading up to that short spell at Hebuterne.

A very tricky challenge, although a worthwhile project!

SteveJ.

[Jonathan_NW]

The project sounds a great idea. I could at least contribute one name! (see the signature below). This is a fascinating thread for me, being a Bolton lad who has been researching the 300 or so men from the town who joined the 15th Welsh. If volunteers are required then count me in.

Cheers

Jonathan

[geraint]

SteveJ

I tend to include the casualties of 1st to 9th July in the preamble attacks; as well as the 10-12th major attack; as well as the died of wounds (one being up to a year later) as Mametz Wood casualties when analysing Ruthin's casualty rate in that area. It's surprising how the newspaper accountsof late 1916, and 1917 refer to individuals who died of wounds months later, as being "wounded in that battle for Mametz Wood", and it does give an indication of its effect.

Edit

Posted at the same time Jonathan; lets see what sort of reaction we get!

[LarsA]

A very interesting project to list the casualties for Mametz wood as far as is possible. I did something similar together with a friend in England, a roll of honour for the Chindit 13th King's (Liverpool) for POW/KIA during the war, with column attachment were known. Perhaps some wounded would be listed in local newspapers, but otherwise probably tricky to go further than KIA/missing with any certainty.

Would be interesting to know if John George Wick (have his trio) was wounded at Mametz. He enlisted in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers 14/4/1915 as pte no 27145 and went abroad with the 16th battalion, 38 division on Christmas Eve 1915. At some time he was wounded in action, and finally discharged the service on 18/11/1916, and issued with SWB 190783. A first day of the Somme casualty with th 1/12th Londons whose medals I caretake received a MG bullet in the arm, had to have it amputated and finally was discharged in november.

Thanks Geraint for the suggestion above, the pint is a safe bet, but I'd better pass on the Honorary bit in case it means all Welshmen on the forum comes after me with a leek;-) No hurry with the photo!

ATB,

Lars

[Hywyn]

Lars

Wick is shown wounded 1/2/1916 in the 16th Bn Diary. Have you got this?

Hywyn

[Kevin O'Marah]

Lars, my father was with 142 Commando who laid the foundation for the Chindits, I did this cross stitch some time ago.

[LarsA]

Hywyn, many thanks! I do not have the 16th btn diary and have no clue as to what they did on this day - trench raid, shelling, sniping?

Kevin, a very beautiful work! Expect a PM.

ATB,

Lars