Flying under bridges

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The earliest photo I have seen is in a book dated 1919. What is the first account someone has read and what is the earliest pic?

Per Ardua

[Adrian Roberts]

Christopher Draper, sometimes known as the "Mad Major" got a reputation for flying under bridges in WW1. I don't know if he was the first. In 1953 aged 61, on his last flight before having his licence revoked, he flew an Auster under fifteen of the Thames bridges.

He's listed on theaerodrome.com as a nine-victory ace.

[PhilB]

I can imagine a conversation at Kittyhawk on day 2:- " Now we can fly, let`s see who can fly under..."! Phil B

[centurion]

Apparently a number of RNAS pilots flew seaplanes under the Forth Bridge in WW1. This wasn't necessarily an act of bravado, sometimes the planes took so long unsticking from the water that the safest thing was to go under the bridge rather than try and gain enough altitude to go over.

[centurion]

Christopher Draper, sometimes known as the "Mad Major" got a reputation for flying under bridges in WW1. I don't know if he was the first. In 1953 aged 61, on his last flight before having his licence revoked, he flew an Auster under fifteen of the Thames bridges.

He's listed on theaerodrome.com as a nine-victory ace.

The list of British air aces published in Air Aces of the 1914-18 War puts him as a 12 victory ace so he's been 'demoted'

[Doc2]

I don't have my references at hand right now (off on a trip), but there were several occurrences of flying under bridges reported prior to the war. Doc2

[Martin Bennitt]

The earliest photo I have seen is in a book dated 1919. What is the first account someone has read and what is the earliest pic?

Per Ardua

Well they must have done it before that. We saw it in 'The Blue Max'.

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

The Guiness book of Air Facts and Feats records that the first man to fly under all the Thames Bridges in London between Tower Bridge and Westminster was F.K.McClean in mid August 1912 flying a Short pusher seaplane. He flew between the upper and lower parts of Tower Bridge and under all the others. The police made him taxy all the way back. Not this implies that there may have been earlier flights under single bridges.

[Rob B]

Martin you beat me to it!

Rob

[PhilB]

Not WW1-ish, but quite good:-

http://www.flydamnit.com/2006/06/24/flying...d-under-bridge/

and:-

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/475642/flyin...ridge_inverted/

[Adrian Roberts]

So far as I know there was only one occassion when an Airship was flown under a bridge. I've posted this before on this site but I can't resist the temptation to do so again....

The RAF station at Anglesey at the end of WW1 was a base for SSZ non-rigid airships ,or blimps - three-seat submarine scouts, tiny compared to a Zeppelin but still 143 feet long and 47 feet from the keel of the car to the top of the envelope.

At the armistice night party, the senior Naval Officer, Captain Gordon Campbell VC (later Vice-Admiral and MP) challenged the RAF CO, Major Tommy Elmhirst (later Air Marshal Sir) to fly a blimp under the Menai Bridge. Elmhirst said he would if Campbell came along as observer. The next day he measured the height of the bridge above the water at low tide by letting down a rope from the parapet, and found that an SSZ would have six feet of clearance. On the next day that the weather permitted, Elmhirst set out in SSZ 73 carrying Campbell and presumably a mechanic sworn to silence, and on approaching the bridge let down a rope exactly three feet under the car with a sandbag on the end. When the sandbag bounced along the surface he knew that he had three feet of clearance above the airship - of course he couldn't see the bridge above as the envelope was in the way. In this way they passed through successfully. Travelling slowly was not an option; he needed at least 40 mph to have enough airflow over the elevator to control the craft.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Thanks for all the replys all.

Adrian missed that posting last time, so thanks for the repeat. Do you have any more information on Elmhirst?

I see that Squadron Commander C. Draper was officer commanding at Walmer on 31/4/18.

[Flyvulcan]

My great uncle would by no means have been the first, but here is an extract from his diary from when he was on home defence duties with 36Sqn, dated Friday 21 June 1918 "...Did my height test. Went under Tyne bridge in Bristol...". He actually meant "in a Bristol" (F2b) rather than "in Bristol".

[Martin Bennitt]

My great uncle would by no means have been the first, but here is an extract from his diary from when he was on home defence duties with 36Sqn, dated Friday 21 June 1918 "...Did my height test. Went under Tyne bridge in Bristol...". He actually meant "in a Bristol" (F2b) rather than "in Bristol".

But what did he mean by Tyne bridge? The structure now known as the Tyne Bridge was not built. The High Level Bridge and King Edward railway bridge had spans of just 125 feet (38 metres), and with the distance between them you would have had to do both IMHO. The Swing Bridge was too low, as was the Chain Bridge at Scotswood. That just leaves the Redheugh, now replaced, which had spans of 75 metres. I would have been inclined to go for that one, though in either direction it would have been tricky to avoid the King Edward.

cheers Martin B

[mickdavis]

36 Sqn pilots from Hylton were well recorded as flying under the Queen Alexandra bridge at Sunderland on Armistice day. Pilots from 63 TS at Redcar did the same with the Transporter Bridge at Middlesbrough.

[centurion]

Looking at the map the three airfields from which 36 sqd operated were in the Middlesborough area- about 30 miles south of the Tyne - Tees side in fact. Given Martin's comments could there have been a mis identification between the Tees and the Tyne? Was there a Tees Bridge at the time? One wouldn't expect a diary entry to make a mistake like that but stranger things have happened.

36 appear to have been one of the last squadrons to convert from F2bs to Brisfits and I assume that this test flight was part of familiarisation with a new aircraft.

[centurion]

Looking at the map the three airfields from which 36 sqd operated were in the Middlesborough area- about 30 miles south of the Tyne - Tees side in fact. Given Martin's comments could there have been a mis identification between the Tees and the Tyne? Was there a Tees Bridge at the time? One wouldn't expect a diary entry to make a mistake like that but stranger things have happened.

36 appear to have been one of the last squadrons to convert from F2bs to Brisfits and I assume that this test flight was part of familiarisation with a new aircraft.

Ah whilst I was typing this I see that Mick was posting. Given his info could this also have been the Middlesborough Transporter Bridge?

[Martin Bennitt]

The Brisfit's wingspan was about 12 metres, so there would be room under all those bridges. The Middlesbrough transporter bridge is 177 metres between the towers, so no problem there, assuming the car deck wasn't crossing at the time.

cheers Martin B

[Adrian Roberts]

Per Ardua

Here is a page on Elmhirst.

http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/Elmhirst.htm

Adrian

[mickdavis]

The height test was a requirement for Northern Defence pilots. The training syllabus had it as part of the Category C test and the specified height was 17000 feet. After qualification, it had to be repeated monthly. The syllabus specified the Avro 504, with which all the Northern group of squadrons were supposed to re-equip. 33 & 76 Sqns did, but 36 Sqn retained BFs and Pups, hence Wald's use of the former.

[Flyvulcan]

Thanks Mick, more interesting stuff.

Great Uncle's diary says he reported to 36Sqn on Thursday 02May1918 but then flew BE2's, BE2c's, "12's" and "12b's" with 76 Home Defence Sqn at Ripon/Catterick until 17May. He arrived at Hylton airfield on 18May and subsequently proceeded to Ashington. His diary indicates that on 2 weekends in late May early June, he flew on the friday to Gosforth (which appears to be a northern suburb of Newcastle) and played tennis over the weekend, before flying back to Ashington at the end of the weekend.

Two days before his "height test" entry, he had overflown his girlfriends house in Jesmond to celebrate his 25th birthday. He must have landed close to Newcastle (perhaps Hylton) because he spent the next 3 days in Newcastle, including the day he recorded as flying under the bridge. That diary entry was his first record of flying the "Bristol". He seems fairly specific with his place names in his diary, and with his experience and local knowledge I feel it is likely that it was a Tyne bridge rather than a Tees bridge that he flew under. He crashed a "Bristol" just over a week later at Hylton and was out of action for a few weeks (a photo of this crash has been shown on a previous thread). Three weeks after getting back to duty, he was killed at Ashington in an FE2b at 11:50 pm, 11 August (it begs the question what he would have been doing flying solo in an FE2b at 11:50pm. Any thoughts anyone? Air test, searchlight training, currency training? Is there a record of whether any weight was placed in the forward cockpit of an FE2b when flying solo to keep the CG in the right place? I know from The Annals of 100Sqn book that the FE2bs were dispatched for night bombing without an observer).

For interest, his crash card states "The cause of the accident was in our opinion the machine stalling and diving into the ground, the pilot being killed when the machine struck the earth." Another entry states "Failed to recover from spinning."

[mickdavis]

Dave

I agree with you about the bridge being one on the Tyne and Stephenson's High Level Bridge is the obvious candidate - there's ample room under it. As for your uncle's flying to Gosforth; it's a reference to the aerodrome on the Town Moor that housed 9 (Newcastle) Aircraft Acceptance Park. The 750 yard square of the moor was adjacent to the Armstrong Whitworth aircraft factory which was, at the time, turning out FK8s. There were 2 permanent hangars and 3 Bessoneau, so a visiting machine could have easily been accommodated.

36 Sqn operated FE2bs as its main equipment, from July 1917 until the late spring of 1918. By June 1918, it was supposed to have an establishment of 22 BFs, but had only received six. The plan was modified to give 4 BFs and 4 Pups per flight but there were FE2bs on charge until August. Several had been converted to single seat configuration, with a fairing over the observer's cockpit and a fixed Lewis gun alongside the pilot's. I've photos of A5740 and A5684 with the squadron in such configuration. As for the 11.50pm. 36 Squadron was a night flying unit and undertook both training sorties and standing patrols after dark - the FEs, as well as the BFs were in toned down markings and were fitted with navigation lights and underwing brackets for Holt's flares to assist landing.

Cheers

[kebabking]

http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/piclib/pa...ture.asp?id=638

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2509256

The first link is to a photo of I guess the 1912 incident.

The second link refers to a repeat performance in 1973 and 1978

I was travelling on a train into London Bridge station.For those unfamiliar with London the River Thames and the railway run almost parallel at a distance of about 300yards near Tower Bridge, the railway being on raised arches.It was about 7 pm in the summer.As the train decelerated on the approach to London Bridge a biplane appeared over the Thames. The biplane flew through the spans of Tower Bridge but I lost sight of it as my train drew into London Bridge station. I cannot be sure if I witnessed the 73 or 78 incident but this thread has at least helped me to verify a story I have told in the past but has been disbellieved.

[Martin Bennitt]

Dave

I agree with you about the bridge being one on the Tyne and Stephenson's High Level Bridge is the obvious candidate - there's ample room under it.

Cheers

Sorry, I am sceptical. I think the Swing Bridge would get in the way. You would either have to dive very steeply to clear it from east to west, or pull up very sharply going the other way, even with the slow stalling speeds and good manoeuvrability of Great War scouts. To the west there is also the King Edward Brige to contend with.

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

The first link shows a photo of the event refered to in the Guiness B of Aviation Feats (see my posting near the begining of this thread). After he'd gone under all the subsequent bridges to Westminster the police made him taxi all they way back! There was no actual law at the time against under bridge flying but they threatened him with the universal "likely to cause a breach of the peace"!