Aircraft identification please!

[eric e]

This is one of many photo's taken by Sidney Barker whilst serving in Palestine with the Shropshire Yeomanry and Imperial Camel Corp. Could someone identify the aircraft and squadron from the photo please so that I can pass the information onto his son John. The numbering on the tail looks like T6? 4135.

Thanks,

Eric.

[benson]

Eric

Not sure of the Sqdn but the aircraft looks like an RE8

Dave

[Dolphin]

Eric

The aeroplane is BE 2c No 4135, built by the British & Colonial Aircraft Company. The unit may be No 14 Sqn RFC.

Cheers

Gareth

[eric e]

Dave/Gareth,

Thanks for your replies. Realised after posting that I have a small book on 1st World War aircraft somewhere. Will have to find out and look at both aircraft.

Cheers,

Eric.

[mickdavis]

4135 To Middle East. 30 Sqn Mespotamia. 14 Sqn Ismailia/ Kilo 143. X AP Kantara ex 14 Sqn 22.1.1917. 20 Wing Aboukir by 14.2.1917.

[eric e]

Hi Mick

Thanks for your reply. Struggling to understand some of the abbreviations though. Could you explain X AP and Kilo 143. please. The 10th KSLI were in Kantara from the 24th March 1917 but it looks as if 14 Sqn had moved by then.

Thanks

Eric.

[benson]

Eric

A bit off topic, but that could could go some way to explain why the chap I have the medals for who was a 2nd Lt in the 9th KSLI but was KIA as an observer with the Australian Air Force and buried in Kantara

Dave

[mickdavis]

X Aircraft Park was a base unit tasked with handling machines for issue to squadrons etc and picking up the bits after crashes etc.

Kilo 143 was the title of an aerodrome used by 14 Sqn from 20.1.1917 to 25.3.1917 and thereafter by various detachments from the unit. It lay some 80 miles east of Kantara, alongside the coastal railway which led to Haifa.

Mick

[eric e]

Dave,

I wonder how he came to be flying with the AAF. Would you have a name for him?, because Annette {6th Shropshires} or some other pal may be able to add a little to his story.

Mick,

Thanks for the explanation. Do you know how many allied/enemy aircraft were involved in Palestine during the war. According to Sidney Barker who took the picture of the aircraft and served with the Shropshire Yeomanry and ICC, they would sometimes be attacked by German/Turkish aircraft, who would fly over and drop bombs over the side. On one occasion his tent was destroyed, luckily he wasn't in it at the time.

Eric.

[APW]

Dave,

I wonder how he came to be flying with the AAF. Would you have a name for him?, because Annette {6th Shropshires} or some other pal may be able to add a little to his story.

Eric.

Eric/Dave

In answer to your question 67 (Australian) Sqn RFC became 1 Sqn AFC in Feb 1918. The squadron while largely Australian manned had some Brits attached.

Patrick

[benson]

Eric

At the moment it's still a mistery why he was there (to me anyway!) his name was Joseph Anthony Morgan with the medals came his small photo album and lots of paperwork including a letter from his Australian CO to his father detailing the circumstances of his death, you wouldn't thank him to know really, some pictures show an RE8 with the upright exhausts, thats why I thought yours could be one.

Dave

[Dolphin]

Dave

The story in the reference reference books is that 2Lt J A Morgan was flying as the observer in BE 2e A1807 of No 67 (Australian) Sqn, flown by Lt Gerald Cunliffe Stones AFC (from Matlock, Derbyshire by way of Tresco, Victoria, and formerly 4th Australian Light Horse) when both airmen were killed in action on 30 May 1917; 2Lt Morgan was aged 19.

According to the Official History, the BE was struck by gun fire over Gaza, and fell within the British lines.

I hope this helps you.

Gareth

[eric e]

Dave,

Having seen a picture of an RE 8 in a book last night I can see what you mean about the upright exhausts. In fact I showed this thread to a lad at work today and he also said RE 8 without prompting.

Patrick/Gareth,

Thank you very much for your imput. Definitely some very knowledgeable people out there.

The KSLI were around Gaza in May 1917 so maybe my grandfather saw the incident.

John {Sidney's son} told me that he has a photo of a crashed plane that had burned out leaving only the tail intact. Will post it if I can get a copy off him.

Sidney bought his camera when he was in the 6th Co.ICC. He bought it for a £1 off an Aussie who didn't have any money to go out on the town.

Eric.

[benson]

Gareth/Eric many thanks to you both, never fails to amaze me what can turn up from a casual comment

Dave.

[eric e]

Photo of crashed aircraft that Sidney Barker took while out in Palestine/Egypt. Any chance of identifying the type of aircraft this is, from the tail unit? His son tells me that he has another photo of the plane in a vertical dive, but taken from a distance.

Eric.

[vervos]

Photo of crashed aircraft that Sidney Barker took while out in Palestine/Egypt. Any chance of identifying the type of aircraft this is, from the tail unit? His son tells me that he has another photo of the plane in a vertical dive, but taken from a distance.

Eric.

I have brightened the image up to help forum members ID the plane.

How's Cleobury Mortimer? My parents used to live there.

Cheers,

Vervos

[eric e]

Hi Vervos,

Thanks for working on the photo.

Cleobury Mortimers just fine, tho' the town planners are trying to ruin it. Did you know our rugby team got to Twickenham last year. Got stuffed in the final by Dorking. Still managed to beat Sunderland in an earlier round.

Cheers,

Eric.

[Dolphin]

Eric

It's very difficult to tell, but to me the tail resembles that of a German Albatros D.III. See the drawing below, and the shape of the elevator.

Regards

Gareth

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

The aircraft discribed in most Camel Corps records being brought down his the one shown below.

The troops were treated late in the day to a display of aerial combat as a German Turbe (Rumbler) of FA (Fliegerabteilung) 300 flown by Vzfw Kautzmann and a British Martinsyde of No 14 Squadron RFC fought it out in the sky above them, they all cheered as one of the planes fell to the earth only to discover that it was ours and the pilot Captain Francis Bevan had been killed.

This happened late in the day of the 19th April 1917 when the Camel Bde had retired to Sh Abbas ridge following the day long fight in the Tank and Jack and Jill Redoubts, and had a grand veiw of the combat.

All accounts mention this fight and the understanding that a German aircraft had been brought down only to find that it was British. There was a lot of cheering on that occsion.

In May 1917 the Camel Bde had withdrawn back to the area of Rafa to recover following the 2nd Gaza fight so the chances of seeing the action that brought down Stones and Morgan at the end of May 1917 is unlikely but not impossible as camel Companies were posted along the Waddi Sheria on out post duty but again they are far from the Gaza area.

S.B

[Dolphin]

Steve

Thanks for the information. I don't think that the aeroplane in Eric's photo is the Martinsyde flown by Capt Francis Harry Vaughan Bevan (formerly 8th Bn, South Wales Borderers) when he was killed in action on 19 April 1917. As you can see from the drawing below, the Martinsyde had two piece unbalanced elevators, while the aeroplane in the crash photo seems to have a one piece balanced elevator.

Rather oddly, Capt Bevan's death isn't listed in The Sky Their Battlefield.

Cheers

Gareth

[eric e]

Steve,

Thanks for the information, especially on the Camel Brigades movements. I will mention it to John when I next talk to him.

Gareth,

Must say that the drawing of the Albatros D.III elevator looks very like the one in Sidney's photo.

Thanks,

Eric.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I agree, I was refering more to the story of the shooting down rather then the photo shown above.

The photo appears to be one of the many of a German aircraft brought down behind our lines.

Of cause I was wondering when the D III Albatros was first used by the Germans in Palestine, I did a quick check of "Air Battle over Palestine" and the first mention of a D III was around the 28th June 1917.

"The second aerial combat was Oberleutnant G. Felmy in an Albatros DIII who engaged a BE aircraft and a DH.1. The DH.1 was badly damaged in the ensuing battle and was forced to land behind entente lines with a broken propeller and lower tailboom."

So was the photo taken in May 1917 or later?

Cheers

S.B

[domsim]

From the Australian War Memorial website-could this be the same aircraft-it looks possible to me? the caption reads:

Palestine. 1917. View of the wreckage of an Albatros DII ?, German aircraft (No. D1791) shot down over friendly lines 15 October 1917. Note that only the tailplane and engine remain intact.

Casualties of the German Air Service by Franks, Bailey & Duiven lists Ltn.d.L. Richard Ernert of Fliegerabteilung 301 killed at Abu Sitte, El Ramleh on 15th October 1917.

Cheers

Dominic

[Dolphin]

Dominic

The wreckage in both photographs certainly looks very similar (the tail of a D.II and a D.III were pretty much the same) although the fabric from the vertical stabiliser and rudder is missing in the first images that were posted. Perhaps souvenir-hunting troops had been at work? The elevators aren't at the same angle to the ground either, though perhaps this is due to the same souvenir hunters standing on the tail to hack at the fabric.

The Australian Official History credits a victory over the Albatros on 15 October 1917 to the Canadian Lt R C Steele of No 111 Sqn RFC, who was flying a Bristol Fighter. Canadian Airmen and the First World War says that Capt R C Steele DFC was killed in action in March 1918, but he isn't listed in Airmen Died or, as far as I can determine, the CWGC. Airmen Died lists 2Lt Thomas Lancaster Steele MC, who was killed in action on 10 April 1918 when flying Nieuport 17 B3594; perhaps there's been some confusion. To add to all this, The Sky Their Battlefield has 2Lt T L Steele as being the holder of a DSO, rather than an MC.

Cheers

Gareth

[eric e]

Steve,

Thanks again for the informative post.

I guess there's no way of knowing just when Sidney joined the ICC and bought the camera, but I will talk to John again to see if he can add anything. For sure he's going to be very interested in the feed back he's had from his photo's.

Dominic/Gareth,

My thanks to you as well.

Would agree that photo's are similar, especially if the troops had been collecting souvenirs. Any idea how many D.II/D.III's came down behind the British lines?

Cheers,

Eric.