Scout Association Centenary 2007.

[JOSTURM]

Some of you may be aware that 2007 is the Centenary of the Scout Association going back to the first experimental camp on Brownsea Island in 1907 under Baden-Powell, who was then 50.

The movement grew rapidly not just in England, so I wondered are there any famous WW1 soldiers with gallantry awards, known to have been involved in the early days of Scouting. A well-known Scout from WW2 was, of course, Guy Gibson VC, and I have heard it said that ALL American Astronauts who have set foot on the moon were ALL ex Scouts.

The second camp was at Humshaugh in Northumberland in 1909.

Much has been said of the role of School Cadet Corps and organisations like the Boys Brigade in helping to train young boys to become effective soldiers in WW1. Bearing in mind, its relatively short history of just 7 years to 1914, I wonder at the impact of the fledgling Scout movement and the usefulness and impact of BP's 'Scouting for Boys' penned in 1908. BP himself argued that the Scout was trained to show more initiative than his Cadet counterpart.

Apparently, 250,000 Scouts served during 1914-18 and 10,000 died.

Josturm

[Kate Wills]

There is a personal memoir to a man called Phillips who died on the Somme. He wrote a guide for patrol leaders, if my memory serves me correctly.

[eltoro1960]

One of the most famous of all John Travers Cornwell

It might be supposed that nothing could outshine the V.C. but Baden-Powell did award the Bronze Cross, then Scouting's highest decoration for heroism, posthumously to Cornwell.

Paper 'Flag' sold to generate funds for the Lord Mayor of London's Appeal

In August 1916 the Scout Association's Headquarters Gazette announced the foundation of the 'Cornwell Memorial Fund' to endow Scholarships or Apprenticeships for Boy Scouts who qualify as 'Cornwell Scouts', a penny subscription was invited from all Scouts. This was followed on September 14th, when the Lord Mayor of London announced a national appeal which would endow in perpetuity a Jack Cornwell Ward to be reserved for disabled sailors in the Star and Garter Home at Richmond, Surrey, and make provision for Jack Cornwell Cottage Homes for disabled and invalided sailors and their families. Naval scholarships were to be endowed for deserving boys and some of the funds raised were used to help Jack's brothers and sisters, including the two who emigrated to Canada. Jack's ornate grave, however, was solely funded by contributions from school children and ex-scholars from East Ham.

Also on September 14th, Headquarters Gazette announced the introduction of the 'Cornwell Badge', and listed the criteria for the award. There was no prerequisite for committing an act of great valour, though saving a life or already holding an award for bravery was accepted as one way of gaining the badge. It was possible to gain the award by "passing a test of physical courage" such as boxing or high diving. The recipient had to be a First Class Scout and have passed the Missioner's Badge (as Jack had) and two other proficiency badges from a prescribed list. There were then other criteria that seem to have very little to do with courage. I wonder if the instigators realised that Jack himself could not have won the award that bears his name, as he did not have a First Class Badge!

Several correspondents wrote to the Headquarters Gazette to point out that the criteria discriminated against boys who may have shown real valour but could not match the other criteria. They were given very short shrift! The Cornwell Badge was to be a badge that would only be awarded to proficient and worthy Scouts who had also been brave or courageous. Baden-Powell, in the August edition of the Headquarters Gazette, wrote of Commissioners encouraging lads to work at useful occupations in their spare time such as "the tests for the Cornwell Badge" as though it was a proficiency badge that could be worked for!

Submitted by a proud ex 21st Midlothian Cub / Scout / Venture Scout / Leader

[eltoro1960]

More Scout VC's

*2nd Lt. Stanley Henry Parry BOUGHEY. Royal

Scots Fusiliers

Scout in Blackpool District

For most conspicuous bravery, 13.2.18

*2nd Lt. George Edward CATES. 2nd Bn. Rifle

Bde.

Assistant Scoutmaster 2nd Wimbledon Troop

(YMCA)

For action east of Bouchavesnes, France 8.3.17

*Boy (1st class) John Travers CORNWELL. HMS

Chester

Scout with (St. Mary's Mission) Manor Park

Troop

For action during the Battle of Jutland 31.5.16

2nd Lt. John Manson CRAIG. Royal Scots

Fusiliers

Scout with 5th Perthshire Troop

For action in Egypt 5.6.17

No.

511825

L/Cpl.

Robert

Edward

CRUICKSHANK. London Regiment

Scoutmaster with 53rd North London Troop

For action east of Jordan 1.5.18

Lt. Col. John Henry Stephen DIMMER. M.C.

22nd Bn, Kings Royal Rifles

Scout Worker Southend

for action at Klein Zillebeke, Belgium 1.11.14

Lt. Donald John DEAN. 8th Bn Royal West Kent

Regiment

Scout with 1st Sittingbourne Troop

For action NW of Lens, France 24/26.9.18

Lt. Reginald Leonard HAINE. M.C. 1st Bn H.A.C.

Patrol Leader with Petersham Troop

For action near Gavrelle, France 28/29.4.17

*Lt. Robert Price HALLOWES. 4th Bn Middlesex

Regiment

Scout Instructor with St. Peter's Troop, Port

Talbot

For action at Hooge, Belgium from 5.9.15-

1.10.15

No. 15851 Piper Daniel LAIDLAW. 7th Bn Kings

Own Scottish Borderers

Assistant Scoutmaster 1st Alnwick Troop

For action near Loos and Hill 70, Frnace 25.9.15

Lt. George Burdon MCKEAN. M.C., M.M. 14th

Canadian Infantry Bn

Scoutmaster Robertson Troop, Alberta, Canada

For action in the Gavrelle Sector, France

27/28.4.18

Major Alfred Maurice TOYE. M.C. 2nd Bn

Middlesex Regiment

Patrol Leader with 2nd Aldershot Troop

For action at E'terpigny Bridge, France 25.3.18

[DaveBrigg]

There is another Scouting thread here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;#entry642397.

There were 16 Boy Scouts on board the Britannic when it was sunk off Greece, employed as signallers, messengers and lift boys. Captain Bartlett wrote "without exception all the boys behaved splendidly throughout, but I have specially to commend Scout E. Ireland of the Liverpool scouts. He was attached to the bridge at the time of the explosion, and he remained at his post until I sent him away finally with the quartermaster (who left the wheel to save his life), although on several occasions I told him to go to the boats. He was of great service in telephoning my orders, and I have great admiration for the pluck that he showed in standing by with a prospect in front of him of eventually going down with the ship"

[JOSTURM]

More Scout VC's ---

John,

Thank you for this. F rom a proud ex- Wolf Cub, Cub Scout, Scout and Venture Scout from Farnborough and Orpington in Kent. My late father was ADC SE London and a Rover from the mid 1940's after RAF demob.

I'm quite interested in this subject of the way in which Scout skills were best suited to gallantry in WW1 and also whether the sense of adventure instilled in the type of boy who became a Scout had any connection to the choice of armed service chosen.. ie RFC, MGC, Tank Corps and the embracing of the newer technologies.

Not that I have the time, but 2007 would be a great year for a new review of the connection between Scouting and WW1 - 100th anniversary of Scouts and 90th anniversary of Arras, Passchendaale etc.

Regards

Josturm.

[JOSTURM]

OK, shooting off at a different tangent...Scouting in Germany commenced in 1909 and was connected to the Wandevogel movement which had started in 1896. Does anybody know of the size of the German Scout movement in 1914 and of any famous German officers involved ? Scouts were in effect fighting Scouts.

Josturm

[Guest geoff501]

Found a few MM, DCM and DFM (rather unusual award)

Not sure if Lowe is Baden Powell's scouts?

Name: CHAMBERS, ARTHUR WESLEY

Initials: A W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment: Royal Engineers

Unit Text: 11th Div. Signal Coy.

Age: 30

Date of Death: 02/09/1918

Service No: 41660

Awards: MM and Bar, MSM

Additional Information: Son of John Frank and Harriett Maria Chambers, of London. Pioneer of scout movement in Slough and district, and first District Scout Master.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. C. 30.

Cemetery: WINDMILL BRITISH CEMETERY, MONCHY-LE-PREUX

Name: LOWE, NORMAN MCGREGOR

Initials: N M

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment: London Regiment (London Scottish)

Unit Text: 14th Bn.

Age: 31

Date of Death: 10/01/1916

Awards: DCM

Additional Information: Son of Charles Lowe, M.A., and Blanche Fitzhardinge Lye, his wife, of 4, Oxford Rd., Chiswick, London. 1st Bde. Chief Scout Officer. Born at Berlin.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: III. A. 16.

Cemetery: VERMELLES BRITISH CEMETERY

Name: SPURIN, FREDERICK STANLEY

Initials: F S

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Corporal

Regiment: King's Royal Rifle Corps

Unit Text: 4th Bn.

Age: 22

Date of Death: 13/11/1918

Service No: 56196

Awards: MM

Additional Information: Son of Mr. R. C. Spurin, of 22, Finsbury Park Rd., London. Assistant Scout Master, 110th North London Boy Scouts.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: S. III. Y. 15.

Cemetery: ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN

Name: MIDDLETON, WILLIAM JAMES

Initials: W J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant (Obs.)

Regiment: Royal Air Force

Unit Text: 22nd Wing, 205th Sqdn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 04/10/1918

Service No: 216604

Awards: DFM

Additional Information: Medaille d'Honneur (France). Son of Mr. and Mrs. Middleton, of 54, Chingford Lane, Woodford Green, Essex. A.S.M. 2nd Epping Forest Troop, Baden Powell's Boy Scouts.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. G. 16.

Cemetery: BRONFAY FARM MILITARY CEMETERY, BRAY-SUR-SOMME

Name: HEADEACH

Initials: M C P

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment: York and Lancaster Regiment

Unit Text: 12th Bn.

Age: 42

Date of Death: 01/07/1916

Service No: 12/392

Awards: MM

Additional Information: Son of The Rev. A. W. and Mrs. A. J. Headeach, of Addlestone, Surrey; husband of Charlotte Jemima Headeach, of Bangalore House, Stokenchurch, High Wycombe, Bucks. Enlisted at the outbreak of war. Scout Master at Harrow for 5 years.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: B. 4.

Cemetery: RAILWAY HOLLOW CEMETERY, HEBUTERNE

[Chris_Baker]

Going slightly off-topic but I thought you might be interested. My son Lawrence is an Explorer Scout (age 15) and is representing Warwickshire in the local contingent at this year's mega global Jamboree which takes place in the UK in the summer. My God, the preparation and training! He's learned to cook for 200 people! And he can't boil an egg at home...

[SiegeGunner]

Also slightly off-topic, I live in Wimbledon, where B-P wrote 'Scouting for Boys' (at the Windmill on Wimbledon Common). Does anyone know whether there are any major centenary events scheduled to take place in my part of the world?

Mick

[MartH]

Hi

Can I add a German

Maximillian Bayer

Founder of the german scout movement. Wikipeg Entry

"From 30 August 1914 by 5 January 1915 Bavarian was a commander of city of Brussels. There it used juvenile German pathfinders for military emergency services."

He then started the Finnish pathfinder corp which became the 27th Royal Prussian (Finnish) Jaeger Battalion.

He then commanded units in the Lorraine area, and was sniped inspecting the ground in front of the front line positions. His body lay unbuired for 6 months, he was buried and moved several times, eventually in Mannheim with full honours and a Finnish contingent. I believe that the german scout movement has commemerations ever year at his grave.

The Finnish Jaegers loved him, I can remember my grandfarther saying what a wonderful and symphatetic man he was, and my mum has similar memories, he made a big impression on the Jaegers and they remembered him to thier deaths with gratitude.

Baden Powell visited Finland in the 1930's or 20's and not only did the Finnish Scounts entertain him, but the whole upper echelons of the army, most of whom started as 'scouts' in Germany in 1915. I have a great photo of Mannerhiem and Baden Powell drinking Gin and Toxics on Mannerhiems' balcony from the visit.

Regards

Mart

[Patrick H]

Much has been said of the role of School Cadet Corps and organisations like the Boys Brigade in helping to train young boys to become effective soldiers in WW1.

Sorry to be pedantic but this statement isnt actually quite true. The Boy's Brigade DID NOT train boys to become soldiers effective or otherwise. Although the BB used drill, banding, rifle shooting etc it was never part of their remit or programme that their members were being trained for the military, but such training was part of the discipline side of their Christian training for boys. Of course, many of the boys did go onto to serve but it was not promoted by the BB

Patrick

[DaveBrigg]

Found a few MM, DCM and DFM (rather unusual award)

Not sure if Lowe is Baden Powell's scouts?

Name: MIDDLETON, WILLIAM JAMES

Initials: W J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant (Obs.)

Regiment: Royal Air Force

Unit Text: 22nd Wing, 205th Sqdn.

Age: 21

Date of Death: 04/10/1918

Service No: 216604

Awards: DFM

Additional Information: Medaille d'Honneur (France). Son of Mr. and Mrs. Middleton, of 54, Chingford Lane, Woodford Green, Essex. A.S.M. 2nd Epping Forest Troop, Baden Powell's Boy Scouts.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: II. G. 16.

Cemetery: BRONFAY FARM MILITARY CEMETERY, BRAY-SUR-SOMME

""Died like a Scout, fighting and smiling."

Who could desire a more noble epitaph than this? First as a Scout, then as a Scoutmaster of his Troop, Sergeant Middleton had learned and taught how to smile whilst fighting.

Then in the war - baffled again and again in his efforts to take some really active share in the defence of his country, he was at last successful, and in 1917 got to France as aerial gunner and observer.

The London Gazette of September 21st 1918, noted him as follows: "He has taken part in sixty-seven raids and has shown conspicuous gallantry and skill in bombing enemy lines of communications, dumps and aerodromes. On one occasion he obtained six direct hits, despite anti-aircraft fire."

Daylight bombing has the great advantage that your target is visible to you, but it has the great disadvantage that you form a target for anti-aircraft guns, which can be most disconcerting to your accuracy of aim, quite apart from other considerations. Furthermore you are eagerly sought for by patrols of enemy machines, who with superiority of numbers and singleness of purpose have very considerable chances of ending your career.

Sergeant Middleton on one such occasion wrenched not only his safety but also the Distinguished Flying Medal from an encounter with the most famous of all German patrols, that of Richtoffen's Circus.

Five British bombing machines, in one of which was Sergeant Middleton, had left their aerodrome and reached their goal. In spite of the fiercest possible anti-aircraft opposition, bomb after bomb fell into the appointed quarter until the flight had no more left. It was now time for home and the Richtoffen Circus arrived to hurry them off: thirty German planes against five British. Quite safe odds, thought the Germans, but the British thought so also, and turned from flight to fight. A veritable dogfight followed. Planes dashing in all directions, banking, side-slipping, turning, zooming, tail-sliding; only a quick eye and a cool brain can tell in the hustle and excitement which is friend and which is foe.

A volley of bullets flies at a foe - in vain, for he has shot up out of sight. Pitching and swaying from side to side in his ever-twisting machine, Sergeant Middleton took every chance he got, and his gun peeped and spat out messages of defiance in one direction after another. Plane after plane goes down, not British but German. Above him a plane is diving towards him with ruthless determination. It gives him his chance. He fires and the plane continues to dive, but now no longer in his direction. Uncontrolled, after his deadly salvo, the machine reels past him; it staggers, turns over, and goes fluttering downwards flames bursting from it.

Richtoffen's Circus have had enough. Eight planes destroyed! This is too discouraging and the odds are now too heavy against them. Why! They have only twenty-two machines against five British. This is no task for them and off they go with noses down, and the five British machines return home in triumph.

This was merely one of his adventures. Sergeant Middleton sought out every opportunity of fighting and made the best of it when found - always smiling.

Once he led the squadron to bomb the Somme bridges, and on his triumphant return received the personal congratulations of General Salmond. Once he was left behind when the British were compelled to retreat, in order that he might fire and destroy the aerodrome, so preventing it being of use to the Germans. Fearlessly and thoroughly he carried out his task even though the enemy rapidly drew near. Just in the nick of time a British cavalry patrol rescued him. Almost every day saw him raiding relentlessly the enemy, his smiling courage apparently conferring on him a charmed life, and stimulating and encouraging his comrades.

His last fight was against the usual odds. whilst on a reconnaissance duty over the German lines he was attacked by four German planes at once. With his old skill and courage he faced them till the fatal bullet struck him and he could fight no more. Back to the aerodrome his pilot brought him, and he faced one last fight for his life.

In this he could not win success, so, smiling - he died."

- The Scouts' Book of Heroes 1919

[JOSTURM]

Also slightly off-topic, I live in Wimbledon, where B-P wrote 'Scouting for Boys' (at the Windmill on Wimbledon Common). Does anyone know whether there are any major centenary events scheduled to take place in my part of the world?

Mick

World Jamboree at Gilwell - checkout the Scoutbase website for dates.

Josturm

[JOSTURM]

Mart,

This is great stuff. can you post the photograph ?

Josturm

[JOSTURM]

Sorry to be pedantic but this statement isnt actually quite true. The Boy's Brigade DID NOT train boys to become soldiers effective or otherwise. Although the BB used drill, banding, rifle shooting etc it was never part of their remit or programme that their members were being trained for the military, but such training was part of the discipline side of their Christian training for boys. Of course, many of the boys did go onto to serve but it was not promoted by the BB

Patrick

Patrick,

your point well taken. My Grandfather was a Bugler in the Bermondsey Boys Brigade and I have his BB Bible from 1911 aged 11. He enlisted in 1915 in the 13th East Surreys and was discharged under age in 1916, then joined the RMLI in 1917.

Josturm

[JOSTURM]

where can I see a copy of 'the Scouts Book of Heroes 1919/ ??

Josturm

[ianw]

Serjeant Middleton DFM - purple prose about his exploits - but obviously a hell of a guy.

Peter - no copies of the Scout heroes book on Bookfinder. It would seem to be scarce.

[edwin astill]

Alexander Johnston, Brig. Gen. 1917, although too old to have been a scout, organised the 3rd World Rover Moot at Monzie, Scotland, in 1939. I tried to find out a bit more about the Moot for my new book on Johnston but did not glean much. I expect a lot of ex-Great War men aided the Scouts in the post war years, and must have been quite an influence on that generation.

Edwin

[MartH]

Hi Peter

Scanned from "Dinning with Mannerhiem", not a great image but the best I could find, it's in other Mannerhiem books.

I never seen a photo of Mannerhiem before with someone who had more medal ribbons! He must have had some removed in honour of his guest. The link at the bottom of the post shows how much he was feted when in Finland.

And a link to a website with them earlier in the day.

Link to Review Photo

There even seems a book about Baden Powells Baltic Cruise, but its expensive!

Regards

Mart

[edwin astill]

Surely that's not vodka BP's been knocking back! He'll be lighting up fags next

Edwin

[MartH]

Hi Edwin

Maybe Vodka or more properly Schnapps, Mannerheim even had his own blend! And you can buy it today, the second version of the blend.

During prohibition in Finland his land was made part of the French Embassy, so he could still legally drink!

Regards

Mart

[austen33]

John Hargrave was an interesting character and scout

http://www.kibbokift.org/jhbio.html

Austen

[DaveBrigg]

I found a copy of 'The Scouts Book of Heroes' in an Oxfam shop last year, priced at £20. It has 60 pages of names of recipients of awards, and more detailed accounts of a number of actions, including all the VC's.

[JOSTURM]

I found a copy of 'The Scouts Book of Heroes' in an Oxfam shop last year, priced at £20. It has 60 pages of names of recipients of awards, and more detailed accounts of a number of actions, including all the VC's.

Dave,

Don't suppose you can scan some of the pics and post them on this thread can you ? 198 people have now looked at it, and it would be good to have a Scout thread repository that could continue to develop throughout the Centenary year, so we can all think a little about what Scoutingh as given to the world since 1907.....

Josturm