Aircraft Western Front 1915

[A.A.Savery]

Hi Gareth,

The date of this particular enemy aircraft action was 18 August 1915.

My grandfather reported seeing this from his position in reserve at MAZINGARBE.

The German plane, which looks a huge monster, came over the village pursued by two British planes and was fired on by our guns. He had some narrow escapes.

When he came back he dropped a light to mark the position of our guns.

The Germans are now shelling the position that he marked last night but they are all falling into a disused pit.

Also he reported on;

9th of September 1915

Our boys are shelling an enemy aircraft and it’s marvellous the lucky escapes he has had.

19th September 1915

12 of our airmen came over yesterday morning from Fritz’s lines, being heavily shelled by the German artillery.

Cheers,

Tony

[Dolphin]

Tony

This might be one of the observed events: on 18 August 1915 2Lt Greig and AMI Nicholls in Vickers FB 5 1637 of No 5 Sqn RFC had a fight with an Albatros two seater that was first seen going south over Houlthust Wood at 9000 feet. The British machine chased the German and fired off a drum of Lewis gun ammunition, but had to abandon the chase after the German descended too low. The Vickers was damaged by the enemy machine's fire.

Unfortunately, the other incidents don't seem to have made the RFC's Communiqués.

Cheers

Gareth

[A.A.Savery]

Tony

This might be one of the observed events: on 18 August 1915 2Lt Greig and AMI Nicholls in Vickers FB 5 1637 of No 5 Sqn RFC had a fight with an Albatros two seater that was first seen going south over Houlthust Wood at 9000 feet. The British machine chased the German and fired off a drum of Lewis gun ammunition, but had to abandon the chase after the German descended too low. The Vickers was damaged by the enemy machine's fire.

Unfortunately, the other incidents don't seem to have made the RFC's Communiqués.

Cheers

Gareth

Wonderful stuff Gareth!

Many thanks for that possible link to the story.

I am curious to know exactly where Houlthust Wood is located or could this be HOUTHULST which is just the other side of Ieper and 99 km (approximately 60 miles)?

This description of this aircraft seem to fit in quite well with the facts so far.

When the C.I first appeared in early 1915, its good handling and powerful 150-hp Benz Bz.III engine gave it an edge over most Allied aircraft. While the C.I was operated mainly in a reconnaisonce and observation role, it also had some success as an early firghter aircraft — Oswald Boelcke claimed his first victory while flying a C.I with Lt. von Wühlisch as the gunner. Germany’s most famous First World War aviator, Manfred von Richthoffen, also began his career as an observer in the C.I on the Eastern Front.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aircraft/germany/albatros_ci.php

Cheers,

Tony

[Dolphin]

Tony

The Albatros was encountered near Houthulst Forest. My late night typing skills aren't what they might be - I had all the letters, just not in the correct order.

Regards

Gareth

[A.A.Savery]

Tony

The Albatros was encountered near Houthulst Forest. My late night typing skills aren't what they might be - I had all the letters, just not in the correct order.

Regards

Gareth

Hi Gareth,

No problem – Its either an extremely popular misspelling or Houlthust really does exist and I am not quite sure which at the moment as I have come across it quite a few times while Googling.

Looking at all the facts once again I am becoming more convinced that the Gunbus and the Albatros were the two opponents in my grandfathers story.

On that occasion the Vickers seems to have been outmanoeuvred by the German plane or on the other hand could it have been that the C1 had been compelled to take greater risks by flying extremely low?

Was this the case or could it have been that it was a far superior aircraft that the Germans were, No way! going to let us get our hands on?

The write-ups seem to point towards this.

Was the firepower of the German also better?

Fascinating, these gladiators of the air!

Thanks,

Tony

[James A Pratt III]

I have some info on aircraft used by the German 6th Army 14.10.15. They include Albatros CI, Aviatik CI?, LVG CI, Ago CI, OttoCI, Fokker EI, A.E.G. GI and CI as well as some LVG B's and other B types. FFA's 5,2b,5b,24,18,13,62,4b, and 9. This army was facing the BEF.

I think the first time incendary ammo was fired at a Zepplin was in March 1916 by of all people the future AVM 'Bomber' Harris. Sadly, his Lewis MG jammed and unknown Zeppelin got away. I am not sure of this because it has been some time since I read the Book "The Air Defense of Great Britain" which I believe mentions this incident.

[fee 2b]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Mar 2 2007, 04:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shooting down zeppelins doesn`t sound too difficult. Huge ponderous target, little defensive fire, incendiary bullets. What am I missing? Phil B

Also the service ceilings of the Zeppelins were quite high, even by 1915. They were unreachable to most (if not all) of the aircraft of the time when flown at maximum ceiling.

Also for Anthony, looks like "Warneford" was a 'Big Name’ pilot to your grandfather because by that month of his success in bringing down a Zeppelin, was the same month that the Zeppelins made their first night bombing attacks on London (June 1915). Warneford would have been the hero and the byword to counter the demoralizing effect of the bombings.

Observing,

Fee 2b

[James A Pratt III]

The books title is "The Air Defense of Britain 1914-1918" Chris Cole & E.F. Cheeseman a great and highly detailed account of the subject.

[A.A.Savery]

Also the service ceilings of the Zeppelins were quite high, even by 1915. They were unreachable to most (if not all) of the aircraft of the time when flown at maximum ceiling.

Also for Anthony, looks like "Warneford" was a 'Big Name’ pilot to your grandfather because by that month of his success in bringing down a Zeppelin, was the same month that the Zeppelins made their first night bombing attacks on London (June 1915). Warneford would have been the hero and the byword to counter the demoralizing effect of the bombings.

Observing,

Fee 2b

Hi Fee 2b,

Many thanks for your comments.

As you say, Warneford’s success certainly had made him a hero in the eyes of the British.

My grandfather later wrote of the need for more pilots of his calibre, bemoaning the fact that these Zeppelins were being allowed to do so much damage in London. He could not understand why they were so difficult to bring down, perhaps not really appreciating just how much higher they could fly than our aircraft.

His sister’s house in London had suffered the kitchen ceiling falling in through one of these raids. Fortunately the family were unscathed, but he did go on to refer to these balloon pilots as “the baby killers”.

Another name that he mentioned was that of Adolph Pegoud, the French National hero with his six victories. Later in 1915 to be shot down himself.

I have not been able to find out if he survived the crash.

Cheers,

Tony

[Martin Bennitt]

For a totally loony take on FB 5s and Zeppelins refer you to the 1986 movie called Gunbus which is not for the WWI purist but was quite fun, IIRC.

http://www.gunbus.biz/index.swf

cheers Martin B

[A.A.Savery]

At last I have a face to put to the name of R.A.J. Warneford.

[A.A.Savery]

For a totally loony take on FB 5s and Zeppelins refer you to the 1986 movie called Gunbus which is not for the WWI purist but was quite fun, IIRC.

Cheers Martin B

Thanks Martin, I'll certainly look out for that film.

Isn't it wonderful what they can do in Hollywood?

Anything is possible.

Cheers,

Tony

[Martin Bennitt]

Isn't it wonderful what they can do in Hollywood?

Cheers,

Tony

Actually Tony, IIRC the film was British.

cheers Martin B

[A.A.Savery]

I have some info on aircraft used by the German 6th Army 14.10.15. They include Albatros CI, Aviatik CI?, LVG CI, Ago CI, OttoCI, Fokker EI, A.E.G. GI and CI as well as some LVG B's and other B types. FFA's 5,2b,5b,24,18,13,62,4b, and 9. This army was facing the BEF.

Hi James,

Thanks, I would certainly be interested in any other details of German aircraft from that time.

I think the first time incendary ammo was fired at a Zepplin was in March 1916 by of all people the future AVM 'Bomber' Harris. Sadly, his Lewis MG jammed and unknown Zeppelin got away. I am not sure of this because it has been some time since I read the Book "The Air Defense of Great Britain" which I believe mentions this incident.

The Air Defense of Britain 1914-1918" Chris Cole & E.F. Cheeseman a great and highly detailed account of the subject.

It sound like a real good book.

I’ll make sure that it goes on my list.

Many thanks,

Tony

[A.A.Savery]

Actually Tony, IIRC the film was British.

cheers Martin B

Martin,

I am highly delighted to hear that.

There is certainly nothing wrong with British films, they just need the cash sometimes.

I am even more determined to get a copy now.

Thanks,

Tony

[Dolphin]

Another name that he mentioned was that of Adolph Pegoud, the French National hero with his six victories. Later in 1915 to be shot down himself.

I have not been able to find out if he survived the crash.

Tony

Sous Lieutenant Adolphe Celestin Pégoud of Escadrille MS49 was shot down and killed in a fight with an Aviatik two-seater from Flieger Abteilung 48 piloted by Unteroffizier Kandulski, with Leutnant Bilitz as the observer, on 31 August 1915. Pégoud's Morane crashed near Belfort. Ironically, Kandulski was a pre-War flying pupil of Pégoud's.

Regards

Gareth

[A.A.Savery]

Gareth,

What an amazing story!

He obviously taught him too well. What a wonderful film that would make.

Here is a photo that managed to find of Adolphe Celestin Pégoud.

Thanks,

Tony

[Martin Bennitt]

Pégoud was the first pilot to loop the loop,,and one of the first to leave an aeroplane by parachute (on August 19 and September 1 1913, respectively).

cheers Martin B

[A.A.Savery]

Pégoud was the first pilot to loop the loop,,and one of the first to leave an aeroplane by parachute (on August 19 and September 1 1913, respectively).

cheers Martin B

Well you sure come up with some gems Martin!

Great stuff!!

I seem to remember reading somewhere, that these early pilots were expected to go down with their planes if they crashed. It seems such a waste, rather like ships Captains.

Perhaps this only applied to British pilots?

Cheers,

Tony

[Martin Bennitt]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, that these early pilots were expected to go down with their planes if they crashed.

Tony

They had little choice, apart from jumping out without a chute before the crash, which some chose to do if the aircraft was on fire rather than be burned to death. Early parachutes were heavy and would have seriously affected the performancde of the plane, but they were carried by the crews of observation balloons. By the end of the war German fighter pilots were using them and the British had developed a practicable parachute but it was never put into service. Some histories say that on the British side they were banned because they were considered bad for morale and would encourage pilots to jump rather than fight, though I am not sure how much evidence there is for this in the form of general orders etc. Perhaps you could start anothet thread on the subject, as a search on the forum under parachutes doesn't bring up a lot.

cheeers Martin B

[A.A.Savery]

Thanks Martin,

Yes, this parachute part of the story is quite interesting and as you have suggested, well worth posting as a new topic.

Cheers,

Tony