Aircraft Western Front 1915

[A.A.Savery]

According to my grandfather in his letters, there was quite a lot of aerial activity around his position in the trenches near Loos.

Where would they have been based?

I would be interested to know what kind of aircraft were flying around there at that time?

Am I right in thinking that they were mainly engaged in reconnaissance work?

Who were the ‘Big Name’ pilots?

My grandfather mentions the name "Warneford".

This is for me another most fascinating part of the war and I would be interested to know the views of others as to the importance of the role of aircraft at that time.

Thanks,

Tony

[Gibbo]

Flight Sub Lt. R.A.J. Warneford was the first member of the RNAS to be awarded the VC, which he won for the destruction of the Zeppelin LZ37 on 7 June 1915. He was killed in a flying accident 10 days later. Warneford was the first pilot to destroy a Zeppelin in the air, although LZ25 was destroyed by Reginald Marix on the ground in late 1914; the more famous Leefe Robinson was the first shoot one down one over the UK, which happened in 1916.

[Dolphin]

Tony

I've attached the RFC's Order of Battle for Loos. I had to split it into three to fit in the permitted attachment size.

I hope that it's useful.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

Tony

Here's part 2.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

Tony

Here's part 3.

Cheers

Gareth

[squirrel]

Was the Vickers Fighter referred to in the orbat the one generally known as "The Gunbus"?

[A.A.Savery]

Thanks for that Martin,

There is certainly no doubt that this is the pilot that my grandfather was referring to.

He also mentions seeing a German aircraft being pursued by several British aircraft and admiring the way that the Hun cleverly escaped.

Tony

[Dolphin]

Was the Vickers Fighter referred to in the orbat the one generally known as "The Gunbus"?

Yes. The Vickers FB 5 was the "Gunbus".

Cheers

Gareth

[A.A.Savery]

Thanks for the chart of battle order Gareth.

There is obviously some very useful gen on there that I was looking for.

Was it not possible to scale it down to fit my screen?

Is there any information leading up to this battle?

Cheers,

Tony

[59165]

Tony

I've attached the RFC's Order of Battle for Loos. I had to split it into three to fit in the permitted attachment size.

I hope that it's useful.

Gareth

Gareth,

La Gorgue-16 Sqdn;is that N of Bethune?& is that THE H.Dowding?

Intriguing stuff

Dave.

[PhilB]

Shooting down zeppelins doesn`t sound too difficult. Huge ponderous target, little defensive fire, incendiary bullets. What am I missing? Phil B

[A.A.Savery]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Mar 2 2007, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shooting down zeppelins doesn`t sound too difficult. Huge ponderous target, little defensive fire, incendiary bullets. What am I missing? Phil B

Yes, I have often wondered that myself Phil.

Was it because they were made in a number of gas filled compartments and also that the gas was non inflammable?

Just making a stab at it.

Tony

[A.A.Savery]

Was the Vickers Fighter referred to in the orbat the one generally known as "The Gunbus"?

Hi Squirrel,

Interesting write-up on that aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_F.B.5

Thanks,

Tony

[Dolphin]

La Gorgue-16 Sqdn;is that N of Bethune?& is that THE H.Dowding?

Dave

Yes it was. In Duncan Grinnell-Milne's autobiography Wind in the Wires he's described as "The Stuffed Shirt" which isn't too far away from his better known nickname of "Stuffy" Dowding.

Cheers

Gareth

[Dolphin]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Mar 2 2007, 10:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shooting down zeppelins doesn`t sound too difficult. Huge ponderous target, little defensive fire, incendiary bullets. What am I missing? Phil B

Phil

There were a number of problems associated with shooting down airships in the first two years of the War:

incendiary ammunition wasn't available until September 1916, so the would be destroyer had to use other methods, such as dropping bombs on them;

airships could out-climb any aeroplane, so [even had the ammunition been available] getting close enough to them to shoot at them was very difficult; and

German airships operated at night, when the art of night flying was in its infancy, so the pilots of defensive aeroplanes without air-to-ground communications had trouble finding the attacking monsters in the dark skies.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

Was it not possible to scale it down to fit my screen?

Tony

Not with my limited computer expertise.

Cheers

Gareth

[A.A.Savery]

Gareth,

La Gorgue-16 Sqdn;is that N of Bethune?& is that THE H.Dowding?

Intriguing stuff

Dave.

Yes, indeed Dave.

Yet another man who made a name for himself in two world wars.

I've just been reading up on him and what a colourful character he was!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Dowding,_1st_Baron_Dowding

Cheers,

Tony

[mikelewis]

Yes, I have often wondered that myself Phil.

Was it because they were made in a number of gas filled compartments and also that the gas was non inflammable?

Just making a stab at it.

Tony

The gas was certainly flammable it would have been hydrogen which if ignited would have produced a huge fireball , if not an explosion with the right amount of air.(famous footage of the Hindenburg going up in flames at Lakenhurst in 1937). Any attacking aircraft would need to get reasonably close to the airship to cause this effect........getting out of the way would have been extremely hazardous! This is why they resorted to bombing airships.......less accurate......but you can do it from a safer distance.

mike L

[59165]

Yes, indeed Dave.

Yet another man who made a name for himself in two world wars.

I've just been reading up on him and what a colourful character he was!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Dowding,_1st_Baron_Dowding

Cheers,

Tony

Thanks Tony & Gareth,

can anyone tell me which side Dowding was on in this barney?-

"After the Battle of the Somme, Dowding clashed with General Hugh Trenchard, the commander of the RFC, over the need to rest pilots exhausted by non-stop duty. As a result Dowding was sent back to Britain and although promoted to the rank of Brigadier-General, saw no more active service during the First World War."

As in on his pilots side(i'm hoping!)?

Dave.

[squirrel]

Gareth,

thanks for the clarification and the link.

[A.A.Savery]

He also mentions seeing a German aircraft being pursued by several British aircraft and admiring the way that the Hun cleverly escaped.

Tony

Which of the German aircraft was it most likely to have been?

I tend to imagine a small, extremely fast and manoeuvrable machine.

Tony

[Gibbo]

Thanks Tony & Gareth,

can anyone tell me which side Dowding was on in this barney?-

"After the Battle of the Somme, Dowding clashed with General Hugh Trenchard, the commander of the RFC, over the need to rest pilots exhausted by non-stop duty. As a result Dowding was sent back to Britain and although promoted to the rank of Brigadier-General, saw no more active service during the First World War."

As in on his pilots side(i'm hoping!)?

Dave.

I don't know for certain, but as Trenchard was a believer in an offensive strategy whilst Dowding followed a policy of rotating squadrons to quiet areas during the Battle of Britain, I'd be amazed if Dowding wasn't on his pilots' side.

[A.A.Savery]

The gas was certainly flammable it would have been hydrogen which if ignited would have produced a huge fireball , if not an explosion with the right amount of air.(famous footage of the Hindenburg going up in flames at Lakenhurst in 1937). Any attacking aircraft would need to get reasonably close to the airship to cause this effect........getting out of the way would have been extremely hazardous! This is why they resorted to bombing airships.......less accurate......but you can do it from a safer distance.

mike L

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your information on this.

I knew that I had read somewhere of an alternative to hydrogen in the non-flammable gas helium.

It seems that in the case of the Hindenburg, they were intending to use this. However, with America being the only supplier and there being political unrest between them and Germany, President Roosevelt took steps in 1936 to prevent it being used for the Hindenburg.

The development of this gas had come too late to be used in World War One by the Americans, but by 1921 the U.S navy did start experiments using it with airships.

Tony

[Adrian Roberts]

can anyone tell me which side Dowding was on in this barney?-

Almost certainly Dowding would have been the one in favour of resting the men.

This from rafweb.org, refering to Trenchard:

Throughout his tenure he exhibited an aggressive attitude towards operations and expected his pilots and crews to do likewise. This led to large scale casualties as British airman flew over the German lines whilst the German fighter pilots preferred not to cross their own lines. Although the British suffered seemingly large casualties, the result of this policy was an increase in the intelligence gathered and photographs taken which ultimately improved the level of support available to the ground forces to a state never reached by the Germans.

However, for all his apparently oblivious attitude to the casualties suffered by his crews, he was in fact very conscientious of them. He found himself in constant conflict with the authorities over the supply of sufficient and suitable machines and unlike other British generals of the period, Trenchard made it his policy to tour the airfields and visit his squadrons and crews. From these visits he was able to gauge the mood of his crews and assess the effectiveness of his subordinate commanders at first hand. Whilst abhorring illness and weakness in individuals, he was always prepared to listen to ideas from those in the front line and to reward those showing valour and initiative. As a result, there were few members of the RFC who did not admire him, albeit in some cases grudgingly.

Several more of the officers in the Order of Battle document reached high rank - Newall and Salmond were both future Marshals of the Royal Air Force.

Which of the German aircraft was it most likely to have been?

I tend to imagine a small, extremely fast and manoeuvrable machine.

If it was a small fast and manoevrable machine it would have been a Fokker Eindecker (the EIII was most numerous) at this date.

Adrian

[Dolphin]

He also mentions seeing a German aircraft being pursued by several British aircraft and admiring the way that the Hun cleverly escaped.

Tony

Do you have an indication of the approximate date of this incident? It might be possible to work out who was involved. The RFC Communiqués have a few episodes that might be the one you're interested in.

Regards

Gareth