Visiting GW Iraq Battlefields

[Cam_s]

Hello,

Before any 'funny' comments are made, I realize that this is an impossibility today, unless you are currently in the US or the British Forces.

However, my Great Grandfather served with the 13th Hussars in the Great War and fought with them in modern day Iraq.

So the questions are, prior to the current situation have any forum members visited the Great War Iraq Battlefields?

Is there anything left or has the history of Modern day Iraq erased this? If there is, I would love to hear about it and see some pictures.

Also if Iraq ever sorts itself out and it becomes safe to travel there in anything less than an AFV, do any forum members plan to go there?

Thanks,

Cam

[Chris Henschke]

"unless you are currently in the US or the British Forces."

Must be the only ones there.

Good luck - I think you will find a lot of changes if you ever get there. for example, the final defensive positions of the 51 and 52 Turkish Div around Qarara and the old railway embankment are now the sprawling suburbs of Baghdad.

A lot of the Ctesiphon area is built over as well. It is relatively featureless between Baghdad and Basra and in a lot of places the only connection between the 1916-17 battles and the current terrain are the curves in the river.

[bob lembke]

I almost had my chance recently; a colonel wrote me trying to get me to sign up, kit up, and head off to Iraq, about a year ago.

As my father fought at Gallipoli in 1915, and was wounded twice at Verdun in 1916, I am no kid and am a bit creaky. It was to use my 40 words of modern (non-Iraqi) Arabic, with one verb. Do you think us Yanks have gotten ourselves (and some friends) in a mess?

However, I bet that there would be things to find in and about Kut, including a Brit military cemetary, which I understand was tidied up by coalition forces. Some of the positions in the desert outside (north?) of Kut must have left traces.

I mentioned on another thread that I understand that we managed to torch the local Turkish archive, that might have gone back 500 years, and from info posted there probably contained the principal personnel records for troops locally recruited; these were not sent to a central archive. On the bright side, almost no one can read the Ottoman Turkish, anyway.

Bob Lembke

[bushfighter1]

Hello,

Before any 'funny' comments are made, I realize that this is an impossibility today, unless you are currently in the US or the British Forces.

However, my Great Grandfather served with the 13th Hussars in the Great War and fought with them in modern day Iraq.

So the questions are, prior to the current situation have any forum members visited the Great War Iraq Battlefields?

Is there anything left or has the history of Modern day Iraq erased this? If there is, I would love to hear about it and see some pictures.

Also if Iraq ever sorts itself out and it becomes safe to travel there in anything less than an AFV, do any forum members plan to go there?

Thanks,

Cam

Cam

If you work in Iraq as a civilian security contractor then you have more freedom to move around than a serviceman does.

Just after the invasion I worked in Southern Iraq & visited Al Amara CWGC cemetery. It was not being maintained by CWGC but the watchman lived on there, living off handouts from visitors.

The surrounding wall panels of Westmorland Green Slate were in excellent condition with skilled carvings of many now forgotten cap badges heading the lists.

The central compound had been disturbed but the Indian Memorials were intact.

(I'm not very IT literate, so if yourself or anybody else can tell me how to shrink images or else transfer them to the Forum's Gallery, please advise me on harryfecitt@yahoo.co.uk. I can then display them.)

I also visited the Kut al Amara CWGC cemetery. It was a mess. Just after the invasion Royal Marines had cleared & cleaned it up but on their departure the locals vandalised it again.

Their argument, which is hard to criticise, was:

"You have come & wrecked our country & now instead of restoring our electricity & water supplies you just clean up your own military cemetery".

Also in Kut I visited the house where General Townsend used to live.

An elderly chap on the street shouted at me, in Arabic:

"You British have been here twice before & just brought destruction. Are you bringing anything different this time?"

In Kut I visited a very well maintained Turkish war cemetery. Graves appeared to be communal but the stone entrance, landscaping & planting were excellent.

I fear for the future of CWGC locations in Iraq. The mutual respect that allowed these sites to remain unmolested was lost when we invaded the country.

Regards

Harry

[Jon6640]

I've heard the CWGC cemetery at Basra has been badly damaged, is this true?

Jon

[Alan Tucker]

I've heard the CWGC cemetery at Basra has been badly damaged, is this true?

Jon

Yes and the adjacent Indian cemetery. Headstones smashed up.

[chrisharley9]

My great uncle is remembered on the Basra Memorial I would dearly like to go there, but not under present circumstances unless someone decides that they need more reservists which wont please the Mrs

Chris

[Terry Denham]

The Basra Memorial has been declared 'unfitting' by CWGC due to damage and will be replaced at some future time - hopefully in Iraq but not necessarily so.

Meanwhile, the names appear in a bound book viewable by the public at their Maidenhead HQ.

[Alan Tucker]

The Basra Memorial has been declared 'unfitting' by CWGC due to damage and will be replaced at some future time - hopefully in Iraq but not necessarily so.

Meanwhile, the names appear in a bound book viewable by the public at their Maidenhead HQ.

Saddam also moved it out into the middle of the desert so it is no longer on the outskirts of Basra.

[bob lembke]

I wrote an excessively long set of observations on this very interesting thread and just as I finished the "cyber-devil" came out of his black hole and destroyed it. Basically I was amplifying Harry's very useful comments. I will have to come back to this later.

One point that I made that, on the basis of main-stream Muslim religeous sensibilites, the excessive veneration of the graves of the deceased is a bit odd or even possibly offensive. When the Prophet (may Peace be upon Him) died, a simple hole was dug, he was wrapped in a sheet, and was simply placed in and covered with earth. From cultural tradition and the very human wish to remember the deceased beloved, "corpse-worship" slipped into some Muslim practice (like the taking of several wives, strongly discouraged in the Qur'ran), especially among the Turks and Shi-ia, for example.

The tolerance of the organized grave-sites of foreign invading troops survived Bomber Harris (didn't he boast that he could, post WW I, destroy any village in Iraq in 15 minutes, on receipt of a report of native disobeyance of Imperial wishes?), and other insults. I think it was simply a matter of tolerance, politeness, and the well-known Arab tradition of hospitality. They would not be very active in the preservation of their own old cemetaries, I suspect. I have been in important Muslim graveyards in several European and Middle-eastern countries, and they tend to be sort of tumbled, benign-neglect types of places, very romantic, especially by moonlight.

But in the last four years there have been (Rumsfeld commented: "Stuff happens!") in Iraq a series of brutal desecrations of archeological sites and collections, major religious sites, and important grave sites, some conducted by coalition forces, some tolerated and observed without intervention, and others due to and allowed by the creation of chaos and conflict resulting from the situation caused by the coalition invasion. The gravesite and shrine of the 10th and 11th Imams is more important to Shi'ia than the 90-year old grave of an Indian mule driver, or some poor Tommy from Manchester, neither grave ever to be individually visited, or perhaps not even known to their families.

When my family farm, which had been German territory for many hundreds of years, were given to one of the victorious Allied Powers in 1945, the first thing the victors did was to go to my family's cemetary and destroy all of the German graves, probably going back hundreds of years. Can we expect anything less in Iraq? Probably the response will be better, but some will be destroyed, and local effort will not go into the re-creation of a foreign sense of grave-site polish and perfection.

I had a lot more said; perhaps it is just as well that it was sucked into a cyber black hole.

Bob Lembke

[Greg Bloomfield]

I've been in Iraq for the last three and a half years. Obviously, with the situation as it is, battlefield tourism is a virtual impossibility even if there was something to see on the ground. As mentioned in an earlier answer many of the battlefields around the towns of the time have been built over and often the only physical evidence of war is the cemeteries (or what is left of them).

Possibly one of the only exeptions to this rule is the World War 2 airfield at Habbaniya. I was there recently and toured the old airfield site that still contained many of the RAF buildings. The cemetery was in a shocking state but had been cleared up to a certain degree by the resident USMC unit. The escarpment to the south from where the Iraqi army shelled the station is still there (no surprise!!) but there is now an old Iraqi airbase on it that is now a large US facility.

If anybody is interested I took snapshots of some of the British buildings remaining and all of the standing headstones and a few of the smashed but recognisable ones laying on the ground as well as a few general cemetery shots. PM me and I'll send on.

Greg

[Terry Denham]

This thread is of obvious interest to WW1 types but please remember the Forum rules re Modern Politics so that it can stay in view.

[chrisharley9]

When my family farm, which had been German territory for many hundreds of years, were given to one of the victorious Allied Powers in 1945, the first thing the victors did was to go to my family's cemetary and destroy all of the German graves, probably going back hundreds of years. Can we expect anything less in Iraq? Probably the response will be better, but some will be destroyed, and local effort will not go into the re-creation of a foreign sense of grave-site polish and perfection.

Bob Lembke

Bob

Please name names - I know that you are on about the Russians here & I can state that their respect for Allied War Graves was probably the same as for the German graves hence the number of non maintainable British (destroyed?) war graves in the former Soviet Emprire & probably they treated their own war dead little better

Chris

[stevenbecker]

Chris,

I think Bob is refering to the Polish who took the Former East Prussia and Sileasa back after the war thanks to the russians.

Those Germans in these parts now became Polish and a lot of pay back for the war went on.

S--T happens

S.B

[Cam_s]

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all of the comments.

Chris- Sorry, I forgot about you guys. We don't get much media coverage of you here in Canada so it must have slipped my mind.

It is an unfortunate situation with Iraq today. I really would like to visit because I have my Great Grandfathers memoirs and he talks alot about his time in Iraq and some of the things he did and the places he went.

I will not be visiting there any time soon. The only place that I get to go to for free is Afhganistan and I will probably be there this time next year.

Has anyone visited back in the 80's when we were friends with Iraq prior to the 90's.

Thanks,

Cam

[chrisharley9]

Chris,

I think Bob is refering to the Polish who took the Former East Prussia and Sileasa back after the war thanks to the russians.

Those Germans in these parts now became Polish and a lot of pay back for the war went on.

S--T happens

S.B

Steve

Virtually none of the Germans remained in those parts - most were forcibly resettled - an act that can be classed as a tragedy in its own right

Chris

[bushfighter1]

Cam First images . Amara CWGC Cemetery. One set of panels & Indian Memorial. Harry

[bushfighter1]

Cam. 2nd Images. Kut. General Townsend's House. Harry

[bushfighter1]

Cam. 3rd Images. Kut. Turkish Military Cemetery. Harry

[bushfighter1]

Cam. 4th Images. Kut. CWGC Cemetery. Harry

[bushfighter1]

Cam. 5th Images. Amara CWGC Panel Detail. Border Regiment. Harry

[bushfighter1]

Cam.

6th & final images.

Amara CWGC Panel Detail.

Loyal North Lancashire Badge.

It will be a real tragedy if these panels are lost, having worked in the business I know that it would be extremely difficult to get them hand-carved today.

My big mistake was not to photograph all of them, but I thought that things might get better.

There Is No Fool Like An Old Fool.

Regards

Harry

[ChrisC]

There are some images here.

http://www.britishwargraves.org.uk/newsite...anuary_2006.htm

Chris C

[Cam_s]

Hello,

Thanks for the pictures.

Its to bad that they are in the current situation and couldn't be looked after better.

Thanks for all of the interest and maybe one day I will be able to visit.

Cam

[keggy65]

I think you'll find bob lembke's reference to tidying up war graves can be found here:

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Overseas/Ira...esRecovery.html

I thought it made interesting reading.