Snipers at Gallipoli

[Guest Mantus]

May be or not may be.. Is important?

This is important for me:

Turkish Soldier: 300.000

After War Turkish Soldier: 89.000

211.000 Soldier Died In Canakkale For United Kingdom's STUPIDITY..

But i don't hate anzac's.. They are really good and gentel peoples..

It is obvious that, there are many unknown aspects of the Dardanelles campaign. For example; Turkish women warriors, whom fought side by side with Mehmets, is a fact never been revealed yet.

In New Zealand and Australian archives and in the Anzac letters, it is possible to trace the hints of this subject. Here is the Australian newspaper The Ages' headline dated 8 September 1915:

"A woman sniper: had been shot in first action. A soldier called J.C. Davies in his letter addressed to his mother says:

".... On 18 May when I was shot, there was a sniper Turkish girl. She was beautiful, huge and aged 19 or 20. Throughout the day, she continuously fired her gun. Although she shot many of us, I felt sorry when an Australian has shot her. As we have caught her dead body, we found a man's body by her side. There were 52 bullets in her body. This war is horrible."

In the archives, there are some other letters and diaries about this subject. At this point, it is possible to think that the women snipers could be illusions the soldiers dreamed because of long-term wars. However, the comparisons between the letters mentioning the "Turkish Women Snipers" or the "Turkish Women Warriors" show that they were most probably real. In short, there is much concealed point in the Dardanelles Campaign waiting to be illuminated.

http://www.canakkale.gen.tr/eng/closer/closer7.html

[michaeldr]

Mantus,

Many thanks for your link to the Turkish web-site about Gallipoli which is very interesting.

Regarding the numbers quoted there on the 'Results' page under 'Military Assessment' and also mentioned by you above; as the web-site explains, these refer to 'casualties' and they should not be taken to indicate only the number of men who died.

'Casualties' usually refers to all of the following;

Killed in Action

Died of Wounds

Wounded

Missing

Captured

Evacuated because of sickness

Record keeping was not very good on either side during the Gallipoli campaign and it is almost true to say that every book which you read will give you a different set of numbers. For example, a respected academic and historian, Professor Tim Travers, quotes an even higher figure for the Turkish casualties; 2160 Officers and 287,000 Other Ranks [total - 289,160]. He took these figures from a book published in London in 1921 by Lt-Col C. C. R. Murphy called "Soldiers of the Prophet" and says that they were the result of the 'careful investigation of Djvad Pasa, the Turkish commander of the Straits.'

Travers gives the British casualties [including Australian, New Zealand, Indian etc] as about 205,000 and the French casualties as about 47,000.

Regards

Michael D.R.

Edited 20 January , 2004 by michaeldr

[Blackblue]

This link tells us a bit about Trooper 'Billy" Sing DCM one of the most celebrated Australian snipers on Gallipoli. I believe he is also referred to an length in Beans history.

http://www.lighthorse.org.au/Pershist/billsing.htm

[Tim Birch]

'Casualties' usually refers to all of the following;

Killed in Action

Died of Wounds

Wounded

Evacuated because of sickness

Michael

Shouldn't you also include "Missing" and "captured" in your list?

Tim

[michaeldr]

Absolutely Tim,

Many thanks for the correction and apologies for the oversight

Regards

Michael D.R.

[christine liava'a]

Here is the Australian newspaper The Ages' headline dated 8 September 1915:

"A woman sniper: had been shot in first action. A soldier called J.C. Davies in his letter addressed to his mother says:

".... On 18 May when I was shot, there was a sniper Turkish girl. She was beautiful, huge and aged 19 or 20. Throughout the day, she continuously fired her gun. Although she shot many of us, I felt sorry when an Australian has shot her. As we have caught her dead body, we found a man's body by her side. There were 52 bullets in her body. This war is horrible."

Could an Australian check out this reference? The Age does not seem to have old (WW1) editions online.

If the soldier could be identified, then his unit could be traced, and perhaps some mention of the female body would be in the war diary- it ought to be if it really occurred.

[Guest Mantus]

"This ace Australian sniper cut down 150 Turks."

Oh

They Died For Me.. For My Folk.. For My Live Free..

Thanks Hero's..

STORY OF “OMER THE ANZAC”

Omer Musluoglu has graduated from Istanbul Faculty of Medicine, in 1957. Then he went to USA for specialising. He tells an interesting story:

During my first days in America, my English was not very good. I was working in Medical Center Hospital, in New York. My duty was blood taking, transfusing blood, serum, electrocardiograph, and things like that. They appreciated the patients; they never had examined them to the novice doctors. I was usually working in the laboratory. One day, I went to a patient. He was nearly seventy-five years old. I was speaking in English. I said, “I will transfuse blood can you roll up your sleeves.”

He was cancer and anaemic at the same time. I rolled up his sleeve. I saw a tattoo on his upper arm; it was a Turkish flag. It was so interesting; I asked him if he was a Turk. He answered “No.” I was so curious about it. I asked again “what is that flag on your arm?” He said, “don’t pay attention, its anything.” I have insisted and said “but, I am so curious it is my flag.”

On these words, he opened his eyes. “Are you Turkish?” he asked. I said, “yes, I am a Turk...” Then he looked in my eyes as if he was searching somebody familiar and began to tell his story:

“It was in 1915. You don’t remember those days. There was a place called Canakkale, in Turkey. To fight in there, they were recruiting soldiers from whole Christian world. I was an Anzac, from the Australian Anzacs... The English recruited us and told “Barbaric Turks will destroy the Christian world. The entire world is fighting against them. We will unite and defeat them. This is an important war.” We believed those words and promises. We joined the army.”

The Anzac continued.

“The English were transferring all the volunteers to Canakkale. They brought us to Egypt. We have trained there for some months. Then they took us to Canakkale. I first realised the violence of the war, there. The shells were flooding the sea. The gunfire was turning the night to day... In every attack hundreds of people, both Turks and us had died. However, we were watching the Turks with anxiety. Our number and technology were mush superior than the Turks’. They were so brave so courageous. What was the origin of their courage? In my first days, I though they were attacking, because they were barbaric. Later I have realised that, it wasn’t the wildness but the love of homeland. I tell you how I had discovered this fact. We landed but we couldn’t have attacked. They were scattering us. We attack they scatter. During one of those attacks, I have fainted by a butt stroke. When I have opened my eyes, I found myself among strangers. I can’t tell how I was frightened. I regained my consciousness. Then they gave me food. I knew that they were lack of food but they were feeding me. I was astonished. I though to myself:

If those men want, they can kill me, now. However, they don’t... If they would, they could kill me before. On the contrary, they take me to back front and treat me like a guest.

With those feelings, I shamed myself. I thought, “Why do I fight against those noble people? Why did I come here? What liars those English. What enemies of Turks.” At that moment, I regretted. However, it was no use... For days, I thought how can I answered back to the grace of those people...

Life is strange. I was nearly dead if the Turks did not save my life. Now, a Turk saves my life, again. Isn’t it strange. I never thought, I would confront with a Turk in America. You are good people. They have lied to us. I believe it with all my heart.”

He asked me my name. I said it was “Omer.” He asked again, “why did they give that name?” I said, “it was the name of the second caliph of the Muslims” He replied “So you have a Muslim name.” I said, “yes.” “My name was Mr. Joseph Miller, up to now. From now on, it will be Omer of Anzac. ” I said “Okay.”

He said, “can you make me a Muslim. Is it hard to become a Muslim?” I was surprised. How he could decide to convert his religion. Actually, he was thinking of it for many years but he could not have found the chance. I said, “it’s so easy to be a Muslim.” I explained the rules of Islam. He accepted. He prayed the verses of Koran. He was crying.

He was old and sick. However, he was so happy. At last, he did something that he longed for many years. He murmured:

“You Muslims always have your prayer beads. Find me one. I can pray from my bed.” I immediately found a prayer bead for him. He was praying all the time. He was a Muslim. One day he requested one thing “please don’t leave me alone.” I asked “why”. He said “come and tell me about Islam, you are talking about very nice things. You make me relaxed”. From that day on, I have visited him, everyday. I explained our religion as I could. However, everyday he was getting thinner.

After a few days have passed, I’ve heard an announcement “Doctor Omer, please come to room 217.” I ran to his room, when I have arrived the scene was exactly like this, in his right hand there was the praying beads, on his left arm tattoo of the Turkish flag. Omer of Anzac was living his last moments. I sat on his bed. He prayed and he passed away. I have cried.

Barbaric? Oh, I Think English People Is A Few Stupid.. Barbaric! Oh! I Think They Said About Arabs

[KAYJAY]

This link tells us a bit about Trooper 'Billy" Sing DCM one of the most celebrated Australian snipers on Gallipoli. I believe he is also referred to an length in Beans history.

Hello Blackblue,

Talking about famous snipers.

Sgt Sandy Macdonald of the 5th Battalion Seaforths was credited with a score of 97. He was a gamekeeper on a highland estate and was said to be deadly within a thousand yards.

They even wrote a little poem about him which goes.

Sniper Sandy's slaying Saxon soldiers,

And Saxon soldiers seldom show but Sandy slay's a few,

And every day the Boches put up little wooden crosses,

In the Cemetery for Saxon Soldiers sniper Sandy slew.

Sandy was killed in 1917 at Beamont Hamel or he may have passed Billy Sing's score.

Regards Ken.

[ozgur]

This female sniper thing is quite intereseting and I recall a similar scene in "All of King's Men" (sic?) but it is impossible to have female soldiers in the Turkish Army during the ww1. Taking aside the islamic laws and customs, what is the chance of finding a woman sniper in the ww1 biritish army?

The Turkish official history doesn't give any info on this (well at least the books I read).

I also read memoirs of some Turkish officers fought in Gallipoli like Mustafa Kemal, Şefik Akel, Esat Pasha, Selahattin Adil, Socrat İncesu. Nobody mentioned this

[christine liava'a]

what is the chance of finding a woman sniper in the ww1 british army?

The Turkish official history doesn't give any info on this (well at least the books I read).

I also read memoirs of some Turkish officers fought in Gallipoli like Mustafa Kemal, Şefik Akel, Esat Pasha, Selahattin Adil, Socrat İncesu. Nobody mentioned this

As far as I know, there was only one woman soldier, not nurse, not doctor, in the British Army.

"Sergeant-Major Flora Sandes, probably the only British woman to have borne arms during the Great War"

[christine liava'a]

She was actually in the Serbian Army

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wsandes.htm

Sgt Major Flora Sandes

[Guest Biplane pilot]

I concur that use of female infantry (snipers or any other) in a Moslem army almost 100 years ago seems extremely unlikely. But...

Barrie beat me to it:

"I assume that the identification discs are from the "kills" made by the sniper.

Given the nature of the job, it seems unlikely that a sniper would be in a position to collect discs from 23 individual soldiers."

The game in that instance definitely was not worth the candle!

Of lesser import (and I don't mean to sound Clintonesque) is "What's a sniper?" Even competent historians such as Stephen Ambrose erroneously refer to any combat riflemen as "snipers". Most writers would hold that a sniper is a combat marksman specially trained and equipped for the role, in contrast to a "regular joe" with a rifle. Of course, the difference is totally irrelevant on the receiving end. (BTW: though distance is often a feature of sniping, it has often been accomplished in close, fast-moving environments. The typical police sniper shot is 75 yds, year to year.)

[Guest nermin]

Hello, I saw this about the use of Turkish women snipers, perhaps I can add a few words.

I remember that I was in Izmir in Turkey during the Independence day (over the Greek army) celebrations when I was fifteen (well over 30 years ago).

Leading the parade were perhaps 15-20 elderly ladies with many medallions and later I learned that they were the snipers used by the Nationalist forces.

I also remember the Turkish coins from the same time period had women who were pregnant and were carrying cannon balls to the Turkish troops up cliffsides.

I am very certain that there had been women snipers not only in the Nationalist army but before in the Ottoman army, not as inductees, but as volunteers.

This is a common Turkish tradition dating from Central Asia whereby the mother of Gengis Khan was Turkish and his wife Dilara would lead battles when he was not able to.

Islam did nothing to abate this tradition. To this day, the laws of the country are clear in that all the border regions have to undergo mandatory training for women over the age of 18.

The same tradition was also used by the Finnish women when the Soviet Union invaded in 1938-39. My father was there and he told me and I have several Finnish friends who confirmed their grandmothers had indeed been the snipers hiding in the snow.

Hopefully, I hope I have somewhat answered this.

Nermin