Snipers at Gallipoli

[michaeldr]

Helberg's thread in the WF section regarding British sniper aces has reminded me of what a serious problem the Turkish snipers were at Gallipoli. Going through some back-numbers of 'The Gallipolian' the other day I came across Col A.C. Fergusson's account, written in 1916, recording his service at Gallipoli with the 21 (Kohat) Mountain Battery. In this account he tells of one of the methods used by the Turkish snipers to achieve their success in this particular skill.

"After we had been ashore quite a long time and were well dug-in at 'Pifferpore' we always had at least one casualty per night which always occurred in the same place, just opposite our mess. One night at dusk just after our Doctor had been talking about it, I noticed something white beside the road, just where the casualties occurred. I sent a man to see what it was and he came back with a piece of white cloth. That night there were no casualties at that spot, but the next night there was a piece of white paper there. I had this taken away, again no casualties. After that it was the Mess Orderly's job to look out for and clear away marks from there every evening at dusk and casualties ceased. The modus operandi apparently was, the sniper laid his rifle on or a little to one side of the mark. When he saw it obscured he pulled the trigger, if the target was going one way he missed, if the other, he hit. There was so much rifle fire going on all round, he was not likely to be spotted from his firing position within our lines."

Has anyone else come across any interesting 'sniping tactics'?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Sue Light]

Coincidentally, I've just picked a copy of this up from the Library, relating to a local man:

'Mrs. Horton of Spring-villas, Lyminster, has received interesting letters from her husband, Lance-Sergeant J. B. Horton, 4th Royal Sussex, who reports himself to be progressing favourably in hospital at Malta. He was one of the first Sussex men to be wounded in the landing at Suvla Bay, and in one letter he states: ‘It is not a serious wound, considering how some poor fellows have been knocked about. The snipers are our worse enemies. There are hundreds of them in the trees, and in our own lines too! They are painted green like the trees, and are almost impossible to spot. There are women snipers, too. One of our snipers brought one out of a tree. She had 23 identification discs round her neck. I have had a lot of narrow shaves myself. It is an awful job to get water, because all the wells are marked by snipers, who have a pot at anyone getting water. I never knew how precious water was until now. I will tell you how I got hit. Harry Lillywhite and I had been getting water, and had got back just behind the firing line, and were resting under a tree, when a sniper go me at 2.15 pm. There happened to be an Arundel chap, stretcher-bearer, handy, so they carried me three miles to the base, and I was in the hospital ship by 6.30 and in bed. The Arundel chap’s name was Lynn; he used to be in the band. He bandaged me up at first.....'

Regards - Sue

[Will O'Brien]

There are women snipers, too. One of our snipers brought one out of a tree. She had 23 identification discs round her neck.

hmm........I thought this was one of the 'Gallipoli myths'..........does anyone else know of any official documentation which refers to female snipers being used by the Turkish Army.

[Bryn]

It IS one of the myths of Gallipoli.

Apart from the fact that there would probably have been a bit of a shortage of women trained to shoot, and certainly trained to shooot well enough to be snipers, in the pre-war Muslim Sultanate of Turkey, the Ottoman army had no provison for women.

I've never found any official document or report by any officer confirmling the presence of women snipers at Gallipoli. This letter, after all, is not an official document. Women snipers are sometimes mentioned in letters, etc., but there is absolutely no corroborating evidence that any woman was ever captured or killed sniping.

Surely any such occurrence would have been exceptional enough to have generated at least one official report.

[christine liava'a]

"Beyond the plain a number of stunted oaks, gradually becoming more dense farther inland, formed excellent cover for the enemy's snipers, a mode of warfare at which the Turk was very adept. Officers and men were continually shot down, not only by rifle fire from advanced posts of the enemy, but by men, and even women, behind our own firing line, especially in the previous attacks. The particular kind of tree in this part, a stunted oak, lends itself to concealment, being short with dense foliage. Here the sniper would lurk, with face painted green, and so well hidden as to defy detection. Others would crouch in the dense brushwood, where anyone passing could be shot with ease. When discovered, these snipers had in their possession enough food and water for a considerable period, as well as an ample supply of ammunition."

from

The History of The Norfolk Regiment

in quotes so taken from somewhere. Anyone got a copy of the book, to look up the reference?

[michaeldr]

It's interesting that Christine should have picked up that quote on the Norfolks' site,

as my quick flick through two or three books this morning has so far only brought up one reference to Turkish women snipers and that, funnily enough, from NZ;

Prof Tim Travers in his 'Gallipoli 1915' refers to the Doherty Diary which is held at the Kippenberger Army Museum, Waiouru

"Percy Doherty, 8th Canterbury Mounted Rifles, similarly remarked that when snipers were caught, they were then generally shot. Strangely, but almost certainly erroneously, this source reported that several women snipers were also caught."

It is also interesting that in the piece quoted by Sue the soldier mentions that "all the wells are marked by snipers" as somewhere else this morning I have seen a reference to a Turkish sniper being caught while helping allied soldiers draw water from a well. This Turk could also have been using another popular trick, which was to put on the uniform of a fallen enemy. There are several references to this ploy, including Col Fergusson whom I quoted at the beginning of this thread: ".......snipers within our lines using Australian uniforms. Men could spend the day in the firing line, pretending to be looking out or anything, they were not put on night duty as they did not belong to the unit in that part, so were free to sally forth and snipe at us in our own lines. After a bit regular drives for snipers were organised and many were caught..........''

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Sue Light]

I've come across quite a few reports by men of the 4th Royal Sussex which mentions problems at the well - seemed a real nuisance. This is another letter which has a typical comment:

Mrs. Holden of Hillview-cottages, Steyning, has received a letter from Second Lieutenant F. Goring, 1/4 R.S.R. [Territorials], to whose platoon her son, Private C. J. Holden, recently wounded, was attached. Lieutenant Goring, during the course of it, stated that Private Holden was slightly wounded in their first advance by a spent bullet. He was going on well, and he was sorry to have lost him for a while from the platoon, as he was an excellent worker and one of his selected men for bomb throwing. Mrs. Holden has also received a letter from her son, Lance Corporal H. W. Holden, of the same Regiment. He says, “I am feeling well myself, only a bit tired. The blooming Turks won’t let us have much peace. They keep on getting fidgety night times, but they very soon get quietened down as a rule, when our chaps start…….[sic] The only thing that worries us is not enough woodbines and the Turkish snipers. They are hot stuff at the game. Most of our chaps get wounded down by the well”

Harry Holden survive being wounded in Gallipoli, and after transferring to the 13th battalion, died at Ypres in 1917.

Regards - Sue

[Will O'Brien]

I'm still unconvinced by suggestions that the Turks used female snipers & tend to agree with Bryn's comments...........Although I can see it as being one of those stories which 'did the rounds' amongst serving soldiers & subsequently ended up in letters home (perhaps to make them more interesting or as an embellishment), diaries & accounts written after the fact.

[Bryn]

Exactly. It's one of those rumours that seem to be reported in diaries as 'fact', when no official source whatsoever confirms them, and which are then picked up and regarded as, and repeated as, gospel by researchers in later years.

If 'women snipers of the Turkish army' are mentioned in the Norfolk's history, it needs to be recognised that there exists at the same time only a roaring silence on the subject from the multitude of other writers who produced unit histories. If every other history of every other unit that fought at Gallipoli, as well as the various official histories, didn't seem to think it important (or authentic) enough to mention it, I'd have to say that Mr. Petre (the author of the 1/5th Norfolk's history) just plain got it wrong.

When you read a lot of diaries from Gallipoli, you soon start to realise that many of them are quite often just repeating rumours. Not all the time, but quite often enough for it to become a recognisable pattern. There must have been a hell of a lot of these women snipers killed if you were to believe every account of someone who 'saw' one. And yet, no official reports. No photographs. There are photographs of captured men snipers, but what - captured women snipers weren't considered unusual enough to get a snap of?

As I intimated before, anyway, I have a few problems with the entire speculation:

Where, how and why, in a strictly Muslim society - which it was at that time - were these women recruited and trained? Where were they housed during this time? What were their units called? I assume they didn't just bunk down with the fellas in their barracks, so they would have had separate units. How did they get to be crack shots by the time of Gallipoli? Is anyone suggesting that they had served in the Balkan Wars as well? Has anyone ever seen a photo of a Turkish woman in uniform with medal ribbons? For that matter has anyone ever seen one from any time before, during or just after the Great war in a uniform at all - with or without a medal ribbon? Were they part of the original garrison of the Gallipoli Peninsula? If so, why aren't they even mentioned in Liman von Sanders's account? Or did they participate in the forced march from Bulair to meet the new landings at Suvla? If so, then why are they also mentioned by Anzac diarists earlier in the campaign? Did the Ottoman army not have enough men who could shoot straight and had to call on women? What were these women's sleeping / cooking / bathing arrangements while serving with the Ottoman army in the rough country of Gallipoli? Did they serve with Gendarmerie units? Turkish units? Arab units? Women-only units? Why do no Turkish accounts (at least none translated into English) mention them? Why do no accounts from deserters or prisoners mention them?

Just some things to consider.

[michaeldr]

On balance I am inclined to think that it is right to be sceptical of the reports of women snipers. As well as the well known sources, Travers and his team made use of a lot of Turkish material and I feel sure that had there been any firm evidence to the contrary, then he would not have cast doubt on Doherty's diary entry in the way he did ["Strangely, but almost certainly erroneously..."].

But how do these 'myths' start and how did they gain such general acceptance at the time, so that they were repeated quite so often and so widely?

Apart from the above, anyone come across any more sniper tactics or tricks?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[jim_davies]

Michael,

Further to the women sniper myth (or not ?). Captain Montgomerie who served with the 1/4th Norfolks during the campaign is the earliest "witness" I can find with regard to this subject.

When the rest of the 163rd Brigade was involved in the advance across the plain (mid Aug) the battalion (with Montgomerie) followed the 1/5th Suffolk on the far left, eventually taking up position on a low hill. From this vantage point some of the action to the front was seen, and it appears to have become a rallying point for the men of the other battalions after the attack broke down.

Montgomerie was to later write of women snipers being "painted green all over" etc. I think its likely he probably didn't see any women snipers first hand, and relied on statements of men returned from the front, who given the stresses of combat may not have been the most reliable witnesses.

Lt-Col Wilson of the 1/5th Royal Scots was wounded on 28 April. Making his way back he was fired upon by a sniper 12 yards away. Three shots were fired. One hit the Col's rifle, second a Sgt Allsop* and the final bullet the Col through the arm. Escaping (running away) on Wilson was fired upon again by another sniper, this time Wilson played dead, hoping that "the stories whereas Turkish snipers never came to view their kill were true. They were."

Two points-I had always thought snipers operated at far distances (ie not 12 yards) and secondly if Turkish snipers didn't view their kills as a matter of course then it would be unlikely for one (male or female) to have collected a number of ID tags.

Jim

*Sgt George Allsop, 3230, 5th Royal Scots is commemorated on the Helles Memorial. He was the son of Mrs W Allsop, Ford St, Derby. Husband of Mary Allsop of 34 North Castle St, Edinburgh. He was 44 years old.

[Matthew King]

Here is a quote from Pte Con Grange of the 6th Essex Regiment. It's from a letter to the Stratford Express

'The country is every yard a veritable death trap of ravines and rock. Of course the latter affords spendid cover, and , needless to say, it is where we spend most of our time - and enemy snippers, too. those snippers paint themselves green, pack up enough grub for a month, and prowl round at night and finish up for good about two two days later, through the efforts of some venturesome Australian.'

[michaeldr]

Many thanks for all the interesting contributions so far

I get the impression that the Allies and the Turks operated two very different sniper 'systems' [for want of a better word]

The Allies operated from their trenches as a two-man team comprising a spotter and a marksman, who was probably firing at a longer range than his Turkish counterpart. Their equipment included mechanical devises such as shields, sniper scopes and periscopes

The Turkish sniper on the other hand, seems to have adopted tactics which I think his modern counterpart would more readily recognise; camouflage involving paint and foliage, perhaps using a uniform taken from fallen enemy and getting as close as he could to his target even to the extent of operating behind enemy lines.

Has anyone come across any examples of Allied snipers copying the tactics of their Turkish counterparts?

Regards

Michael D.R.

[michaeldr]

Women snipers is such an intriguing idea that I am reluctant to put another nail into its coffin. However I have just been reading Aubrey Herbert's "Mons, Anzac & Kut" which was first published in 1919 and he gives this early report of the story of Turkish women snipers.

"About this time [Tuesday, April 27th (ie. only three days into the fighting)] spy mania started which is one of the inevitable concomitants of war. Spies were supposed to be everywhere. In the popular belief, that is 'on the beach,' there were enough spies to have made an opera. The first convincing proof of treachery which we had was the story of a Turkish girl who had painted her face green in order to look like a tree, and had shot several people at Helles from the boughs of an oak. Next came the story of the daily pigeon post from Anzac to the Turkish line;but as a matter of fact, the pigeons were about their business of nesting."

Herbert was an Intelligence Officer on General Godley's Staff at Anzac. Because of his knowledge of the languages of the eastern Mediterranean he was very often called upon to interview captive prisoners or enemy wounded, so he would have been in a very good position to verify if this story were true or not.

The book can be found at

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/texts/world_war_I/Mons/mons.htm

Regards

Michael D.R.

Sorry about the link that isn't

Suggest you type Aubrey Herbert into Google and it will come up 2nd or 3rd item

That's how I got to it first time

Edited 31 December , 2003 by michaeldr

[Guest Pete Wood]

I would like to recommend reading Ray Westlake's book, British Regiments at Gallipoli.

This gives abridged portions (highlights) from the war diaries of the various regiments that served at Gallipoli.

Nearly all the regimental diaries pay tribute to the Turkish snipers. I will look through to see if there is any mention of female snipers - apart from that mentioned in the Norfolks.

I can say, though, that women snipers are mentioned in the 1/5 Suffolks history. But as the Suffolks were in the same (163) brigade as the Norfolks, it could be a case of heresay....

Interesting, I think, while talking of 163 brigade, is the fact that one wealthy officer had, after being sniped at for four weeks, an expensive Martini rifle shipped across to Suvla which was used by the IoW rifles to 'snipe at the snipers.' A running score was kept as to how many 'kills' were achieved.

If you look at the war diary for the 1/4 Royal Scots, on the 26th June a message was received from Major General GCA Egerton (GOC 52nd Division) congratulating CQMS Dewar for "his good shooting." Dewar was a winner of the Kings Prize for marksmanship and was responsible for killing a sniper operating in the rear of the firing line (21st June). Hunter-Weston said of Dewar, that he "never made as good a 'bulls-eye' at Bisley as he did on this occasion."

[Guest jbd]

There are women snipers, too. One of our snipers brought one out of a tree. She had 23 identification discs round her neck.

I assume that the identification discs are from the "kills" made by the sniper.

Given the nature of the job, it seems unlikely that a sniper would be in a position to collect discs from 23 individual soldiers.

More mythology perhaps?

Barrie Dobson

[Guest Hussar]

Officers and men were continually shot down, not only by rifle fire from advanced posts of the enemy, but by men, and even women, behind our own firing line,

The important word in the above quote is 'behind'.

Given earlier discussions about the Turk snipers tendencies for camouflage, it is not inconceivable that they may have disguised themselves, in womans clothing, to operate freely behind the Allied lines. Thus giving rise to the myth of 'Female' snipers.

[Tim Birch]

A couple of years ago I had a discusion on another Great War forum with a Turkish amateur historian. He was adamant that there were no female snipers in the Turkish Army of 1915. Turkey was a Muslim country and women would not have been permitted to join the Army.

There is no evidence on this subject other than rumour.

So far as snipers infiltrating behind the British lines is concerned, this would in my opinion, have been most unlikely given the very small beach heads held. There wasn't enough space for this without them being quickly detected. What is much more likely is that given the complex situation were there were steep ravines between trenches and posts, the front line was fragmented and ill defined in places. This could well have resulted in incoming fire coming from behind in some of the forward positions.

Tim

[Guest Hussar]

Here is a quote, from the War Diary, by Captain Montgomerie, who was commanding the 1 /4th Battalion Norfolk Regiment(Territorial) in the absence of Colonel Harvey :

'...Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green.'

[Bryn]

And again I ask: where are the photos? Why are these women not mentioned in any official histories? No Turkish civilians remained within allied lines at Gallipoli.

In the first week or so, spy mania was at such a fever pitch and the men's nerves strained to such a point that men of the Royal Marines killed their own C.O. and bayoneted an Australian officer accompanying him, believing them to be spies.

Actual Turks would have stood no chance while Indians and even darker-complexioned Anzacs were routinely being arrested as spies.

[dave ricketts]

I was reading, over Christmas, Charles Crutchley's "Shilling A Day Soldier" published in the very early 1980s (if I recollect correctly.) He was with 1/4th Northants in the Dardenelles until he was invalided home with dysentry, and mentions the lady sniper with her collection of ID discs. He says that she was dealt with by the Aussies. He doesn't pass any comment to suggest that he felt it was anything other than fact. He does note the problems of sniping in general.

Later in the book, after he transfers to the MGC, he goes to Mespot, and describes that in interesting, if unpolished, terms. I am not aware of any other private soldier's accounts of this campaign. (Latter part of post off the thread, but once I start.....)

[Guest Mantus]

'...Women snipers have been caught within our lines with their faces, arms, legs, and rides painted green.'

I know something about women snipers..

An Old Turkish Soldier Tell Me:

"They are not people.. They are Warrior's of the god.. They Are Not From Our Army or Our Folk.. They are helped us because we are weak.."

(Green is islamic symbol.)

This May be or not may be.. but this is very interesting..

I Like attach a file about paranormal things..

This is a mountain in east of Turkey.. In Ardahan City..

Every Year 30 Days peoles can see this silhouette (15 june-15 july)..

This is Ataturk's silhouette..

[Robert Dunlop]

I know something about women snipers..

An Old Turkish Soldier Tell Me:

"They are not people.. They are Warrior's of the god.. They Are Not From Our Army or Our Folk.. They are helped us because we are weak.."

(Green is islamic symbol.)

This May be ot not may be.. but this is very interesting..

This information is very helpful and interesting. Was the soldier from your family?

Thank you

[Guest Mantus]

No, He Is Not From My Family. I Meet With Him 6 Years Ago In Canakkale.. He May Be Die

Thanks

[Guest Pete Wood]

I have now been through the complete book by Westlake - British Regiments at Gallipoli. The only units to mention a female sniper are those from 163 brigade; Norfolks, Suffolks, Isle of Wight Rifles (as in the units portrayed in the TV play, "All The Kings Men."

Not one other unit mentions female sniper(s).

All units, however, pay tribute to the Turkish snipers - who seemed very adept at picking off officers (quite a few COs).

Tim B, many of the units DO say that Turkish snipers were active behind (and within) the British lines. But I agree with your point about 'defined' lines.