egbert Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Jack the Kiesgrube mentioned by Ernst Juenger is due west of G.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Hi uncle bill Your friend may be interested in the following, if they do not already have it. From 20th Division report for 3rd September 1916. 10 seconds before zero (which was noon) the "Push Pipe" mine driven from the trench at T.30.b.55.15. (this should be S.30.b.55.15. because T.30 is the other side of Comble) towards the hostile strong point at T.30.b.7.2. (again this should be S.30.b.7.2.) was exploded and the Flammenwerfer turned on to the same objective. The apparent results of the explosion were somewhat disappointing, as the trench formed was very shallow and only some 120 feet long. The actual results obtained from the combined effects of the explosion and the Flammenwerfer appear, however, to have been satisfactory, for the strong point against which they were directed gave no trouble to the troops (11th and 10th R.B.) during the advance. The 20th Division History records that this strong point was a machine-gun emplacement, and a formidable obstacle which had held up former attacks on this flank. It also records that the push pipe mine had evidently struck a stone in being run out and had turned back, thus leaving only a 120 foot trench, and leaving the machine-gun emplacement intact. It goes on to say that the 11th and 10th R.B. met strong opposition at the first sunken road, the 6th Ox. & Bucks. passed through these battalions and took 20th Divisions part of second sunken road, this was done by 12.30 p.m. The 1/Cornwall L.I. and 12/Glous. of the 5th Division took the rest of the sunken. The 7/Somersets in support of the 59th Brigade moved into first sunken road, and the attack continued on to next objective. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle bill Posted 16 January , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Thanks Annette. This is for my firend but I'm really enjoying learning from this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Hi uncle bill Could you ask your friend were he got the following from A report of the 2nd Leins. 23 aug talks of troops lined up astride de G-Hardec. road According to the 20th Division's History, they had relieved the 24th Division on the 22nd August (page 64), and the Official History backs this up (page 200), if G-Hardec. road stand for the Guillemont-Hardecourt road then this date as to wrong. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike McCarthy Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 As I read it, the 20th Div does relieve 24th Div on 22nd August in the sector North of the Montauban-Guillemont Road. The 2/Leinsters were however held in Divisional Reserve and during the night of 23/24 Aug were moved up to the front line position in front of Arrow Head Copse where they relieved battalions of 'Gloucesters and Sherwood Foresters'. So 2/Leinster are in the area. Hitchcock and C Coy are postioned on the right (& A Coy on the left). The junction of the two Coys is at the barricade at the ridge where the sunken lane runs out. Hitchcock's C Coy are therefore deployed towards the Guillemont-Hardecourt road. If not on it certainly in the outposts opposing the German outpost line linking the sunken lane to the G-H road. Later on 25/26th Aug the 20th Div sidesteps south of the Montauban-Guillemont road and directly oppose Junger's FR73, and 2/Leinster (24th Div) are relieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Just as an aside, the Quarry at Guillemont was still very much in evidence until around 1995 when the landowner changed and it was leveled and partially filled in. When I first visited it in the 80s it was almost the depth it is in the photos Jack has posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 16 January , 2007 Share Posted 16 January , 2007 Hi Mike I should have checked when the 5th Division took over the line first, I knew the 20th Division had sided stepped on 25/26th Aug but wrongly presumed the 24th Div. had moved out of the line (I know - never presume anything ). Thanks Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrac Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Yes indeed its the Kiesgrube! Thanks Egbert another piece in the jigsaw and wonderful photos David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Egbert Thanks for pointing it out. I cannot imagine why I wrote north - must be a sign of age. To show how remorseful I am, here is a sketch lifted from the war diary of IR 124, showing part of the major, failed, attack of 8 August on Guillemont. The assault on the Kiesgrube itself threatened to outflank it completely. Trones Wood and its associated prominent copse at the top of the map is, of course, off to the west. The dotted arrow shows the route used by a party of runners and orderlies under Oberleutnant Farny (Battalion Adjutant) to approach the dugout of the K.F [Company Commander] and hit the attackers hard in the flank. (The arrows with dots and dashes show the attempted pincer movement by the British and the solid arrows the successful counter moves of the Germans led, notably, by Gefreiter Leyhr 10th Coy). Note all the well-developed dugouts. This is one of the reasons why, although the Kiesgrube was easy for the Allied artillery to hit, it was difficult to damage the defenders themselves and a powerful reason why they hung on there so long. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hi Jack Have you seen I.W.M. photo Q1171, of German officer (I think) looking through field glass towards Waterlot Farm. It would have been taken from somewhere between the Kiesgrube and road leading to Waterlot Farm, you can just see the tip of Trones Woods in the photo. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Annette No, I am afraid that I am not familiar with that one. Do you have a copy you can post? In the meantime, though the quality is not very good, this is definitely an August 1916 Kiesgrube picture; captioned as such in the history of IR 124. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6th Shropshires Posted 17 January , 2007 Share Posted 17 January , 2007 Hi Jack I will post it as long as its ok to post I.W.M. photos, I do not want to break any copyright, I got permission from them to use it in my book. I know copyright as been mentioned on the forum before but can't remember the rules, so if some kind soul would let me know, I would be greatful. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmanmerlin Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 .... HI, Any chance some of ya'll can confirm that werk drachenburg is the Dragon Alley Junger mentions, when the 7th and 8th companies of the 73rd, relieved the 225th ( from 49th div) somewhere in the area between the Wonton line (II ) and the Siegfried line, near the 3rd or 4th lock of the canal Nord. I am trying to follow the book and the trench to see how well they mesh. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelsjbl Posted 6 August , 2007 Share Posted 6 August , 2007 I have tried merging the modern aeial photo with a couple of the trench maps provided earlier. Not sure how much use they are to anyone, bit it certainly shows the accuracy of the map makers at the time. I couldn't quite get the second one to merge exactly but it is very close. The first one is better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 10 October , 2010 Share Posted 10 October , 2010 Apologies Pals, but some additional relevant material on this has been posted in a new Topic here: Sunken Lane, Guillemont before egbert drew our attention to this excellent survey! Also my post from 2009 here is likely to be of interest - Tour through Guillemont with Google StreetView The actual StreetView tour is in a link within that post, but you need to read my post alongside it as a commentary to locate the various Guillemont 1916 landmarks. Again, I missed this Topic back then! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 I just read 600 pages copy of Jünger's original diary - unedited! Found this sketch, dated 27.8.1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 (edited) Just came across this useful sketch map from the East Surrey Regiment regimental history showing of the positions west of Guillemont on 16 Aug 1916. The two sunken lanes and the MG strongpoint are well defined. [source: Pearse & Sloman History of The East Surrey Regiment Vol II 1914-1917 - on-line here: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/maps/es_vol2_pdf_maps/es_vol2_14.pdf] EDIT: correct source citation added following Michael's post below. Edited 6 October , 2014 by MBrockway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastSurrey Posted 6 October , 2014 Share Posted 6 October , 2014 The'Q.R.R.' map is from Pearse & Sloman's 'History of the East Surrey Regiment' Vol.II. It shows the attack by 2 coys. of 9/E.Surrey on 16/8/16, in conjunction with an attack by 3rd Division on the right. The E.Surrey C.O., de la Fontaine, had requested that the German strongpoint, of iron rails and concrete, be destroyed first by 9.2 howitzers. In the event, some 6" shelling, only, was provided to little benefit. Around 250 men attacked, led by Captain J.L. Vaughan, who was killed and there were more than 180 casualties. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 11 October , 2014 Share Posted 11 October , 2014 This topic covering the area around the Quarries is also likely to be of interest to readers here: Guillemont Quarry.August 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 November , 2014 Share Posted 20 November , 2014 Useful material on the August attacks in this topic: Somme 1916 researching battle for Guillemont 8th to 11th August 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 17 February , 2017 Share Posted 17 February , 2017 On 06/08/2007 at 03:19, tmanmerlin said: Any chance some of ya'll can confirm that werk drachenburg is the Dragon Alley Junger mentions, when the 7th and 8th companies of the 73rd, relieved the 225th ( from 49th div) somewhere in the area between the Wonton line (II ) and the Siegfried line, near the 3rd or 4th lock of the canal Nord. I am trying to follow the book and the trench to see how well they mesh. Afternoon, Attempting to follow this up here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 17 February , 2017 Share Posted 17 February , 2017 The area we're covering here is about 15 miles to the SW of the 'Dragon Alley' near Moeuvres and Junger left this area about 14 months before the passages you quote in your link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 20 February , 2017 Share Posted 20 February , 2017 Thank you. I just wanted to link to the other topic in case, like me, a search on Dragon Alley brought one here. Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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