Guillemont Quarry.August 1916

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening All.

I wonder if someone could explain why during the August 1916 battles of the Somme did the British Artillery single out and and pay special attention in the prolonged shelling of the Quarry just outside the village of Guillemont and what German troops were there? Look forward to your comments .

Regards Andy

[Jack Sheldon]

Andy

First of all here are a couple of maps from the Wuerttemberg Archives in Stuttgart.

[Jack Sheldon]

For most of August 1916 this area was defended by 27th Infantry Division, commanded by Generalleutnant von Moser. The maps show a snapshot about mid August when Guillemont itself was being defended by IR 120, with other regiments responsible for the sectors north and south of the village. Such was the pressure that these regiments swapped over from time to time, but, fundamentally, it was that Division alone that held out here for weeks. The 'Quarry' was actually a gravel pit and most of it has been filled in since, but a distinct raised area of rough ground with a bit of a dip around it marks were the battle ebbed and flowed for so long. If you look at map 2 you will see the letters K.F. (Kompanie Fuehrer = Company Commander) along the forward edge in four places. The second from the top shows where the gravel pit was. It could be accessed out of view of the British lines from the road leading into Guillemont church. The sunken sides of the pit and its approaches were chock a block with dug outs where the defenders could shelter then, when the barrages lifted, emerge to occupy the high ground which acted as a sort of bastion or breakwater. Even when on occasion the fighting was hand to hand here the defence was not pushed out. I say 'barrages' because during the course of some of the most costly, sterile, fighting of the entire Battle of the Somme, British troops attacked repeatedly, using exactly the same tactics across the open ground from the direction of Trones Wood. Each time they got the same treatment and, because of the physical nature of the ground round the Gravel Pit, even on those occasions when British troops penetrated the village, the defenders emerged, cut them off and destroyed them. The British had to relieve their attacking divisions repeatedly as they were shot to pieces. The Germans just had to tough it out. I wrote in my Somme book (referring to the hand over to 56th Division on 25th August), 'The men of 27th Division from Wuerttemberg had held on for an astonishing twenty five days right at the focus of the August fighting, withstanding several set piece attacks, constant bombardment and countless minor actions. It was an amazing performance...' It was, too.

Jack

[andrew pugh]

Morning Jack.

Thank you very much for your promp indepth reply,one of the reasons I asked this question because whilst there a few weeks ago I came across the most largest peice af shell fragment I have ever seen, I could only just lift it with one hand ,so that must have been a whopper of a shell. Its strange when you stand near the quarry and look across to Trones Wood such open ground, it looks a nightmare of a place to have had to advance across at that time. Once again thank you for your reply,Keep writing those books.

Best Regards Andy

[Retrac]

The Quarry at Guillemont features in my family history. My grandfather was in 73MGC and won his DCM during an attack on Guillemont. He was reported as having dug in near the Quarry and was giving covering fire to advancing troops (from the direction of Trones Wood). The War diary for 18th August records:

12;40am 73 IB O.O (revised) received altering Brigade attack to a 2 Battalion frontage and M.G Reserve from four to six guns.

Two guns attached to 9th Royal Sussex Regt detached from them and placed in reserve at BRICQUETERIE

5:30 Verbal message received from Sergt CARTER that 2nd Lt ANDERSON’S team had suffered severely and that the gun was out of action having been disabled by shell fire.

Ordered Sergt DISNEY to take forward one of the second line guns to replace damaged one and for old team to report to Company HdQrs

6:30 Obtained leave from Brigade to replace Sergt Disney’s gun in second line by gun from reserve. Cpl Evans and team sent forward.

8:00 Disposition of guns now as attached

8:55 ZERO time received being 2:45pm

Private Swame i/c B Gun team reported to Company HQ with gun and team having found himself in wrong assembly trenches and being unable to obtain any information from the 13th Middlesex Regt and being ordered by them to rejoin his company

Casualties up this time MGC 2 Officers killed, shell fire 2nd Lt E.L. BLECK and 2nd Lt G.R. ANDERSON 2 O.R killed , shell fire 4O.R wounded 2 O.R missing.

O.R attached 4 wounded 2 missing

2:45pm Attack started

5:15pm Private Gatenby (wounded) stated right hand guns held up with 13th Middlesex Regt but going forward with Leinsters who were relieving them.

Sergt Carter (wounded) stated his gun went forward and succeeded in establishing themselves 50 yards in front of line being consolidated by 7th Northamptonshire Regt and about 100 yards to right of QUARRY

7pm Information received through Major Murphy (temporarily in command of 7th Northamptonshires) that his left flank was being covered by gun under Sergt Disney who had succeeded in getting forward and establishing himself on his flank

TOTAL CASUALTIES FOR DAY: MGC 2 Officers killed, 2 O.R. killed, 8 wounded , 2 missing

Attached O.R. 14 wounded 2 missing

The 7th Northants had 372 casualties. My grandfather was wounded and returned to UK rejoining MGC later. 2nd Lt Anderson was one of the officers killed that day.

David

[Clio]

The attacks on Guillemont from the eastern flank of Trones Wood have been condemned in the post war years.

Putting yourselves in the positions of Congreve (and later Cavan) may I pose the question, with an open mind, given the context of July/August/September 1916, what alternative tactics existed for capturing the village ?

[Max Garrety]

^{Good morning,}

^{My great uncle, 2Lt Charles Saunders, C Coy, 7 Northants was killed on 18 Aug on the attack at Guillemont Quarry (courtesy of some poorly co-ordinated RA barrage; all the C Coy officers were wiped ou). We're going to see his grave in a couple of weeke but apart from the accounts in the 7th's War Diary and the maps therein, I can't seem to find a map with clear indications of the first and second objectives (incl. Guillemont Quarry. Does anyone have any clearer maps of the area showing trench lines and if poss, where the barrage might have hit his Coy?}

^{Many thanks,}

^Max

[Jack Sheldon]

Is this any help? It is straight out of BOH 1916 Vol II, which mentions the attack, but it ascribes heavy losses to the German bombardment and close quarter heavy fighting.

Jack

[Max Garrety]

Jack, that's really kind. I'm trying to get into the detail of what happened on the 19 Aug; the difficulty I have is identifying the objectives for C Coy on a nap (I've had the map people at Feltham send me something). The War Diary for the Bn, regarding C Coy states that 'there was no shelling by the enemy. Casualties were caused by our own guns'. Either the blue on blue was the cause of Charles' wounds and then death or he'd been hit by either snipers or 'bombs' from the position left of the quarry ( which I assume is the quarry in Guillemont and the second objective in the attack by the Bn).

[philgb]

Took this photo of Guillemont as we came out of Trones woods and walked across the recently ploughed fields to Guillemont on 18th August this year, virtually every step we could see bits of shell casings and other rusted small fragments. very moving trip

[Max Garrety]

Phil,

Great pic and easy to id where C Coy were hit and where Charles was wounded. Tied in with all the maps and diaries, it's all coming together for the end of the month when we visit.

Many thanks,

Max

[Stebie9173]

Not sure if you have the paragraphs from Hugh Basil King's battalion history:

CHAPTER VIII

SOMME, 1916

AFTER spending a week training at Molliens-Vidame, on July 31st the battalion proceeded by motorbuses to Hangest, where they entrained for Vecquemont. (In arrival at Vecquemont the battalion marched through Corbie to billets in Sailly-le-Sec. One day was spent in that place before the battalion proceeded to a bivouac camp in Happy Valley, near Bray. This camp was eventually vacated for one nearer the line, known as The Citadel, and on August 14th the battalion moved to positions near the old British front line in the neighbourhood of Montauban. While in that neighbourhood the battalion was employed in working-parties in and round Trones Wood. These working-parties were engaged in constructing a communication trench up to the front line, but their progress was greatly hindered by the heavy shelling and the fact that the whole area was littered with the unburied dead of the recent fighting.

These working-parties in Trones Wood were fortunately attended with very few casualties, but it was with a certain amount of relief that the battalion, on .August 17th, received orders to relieve the 8th Royal West Kent Regiment (72nd Infantry Brigade) in the line. This relief was accomplished without incident, and the battalion prepared for the attack on Guillemont it had been ordered to make the next day. This attack was to be part of an assault on a wide front, and the objective assigned to the 7th Northamptons was a stone quarry on the western edge of the village of Guillemont. The 3rd Rifle Brigade, attacking on the left, were to take the station and the 13th Middlesex Regiment to attack on the south side of the village. It had been decided that this attack, unlike the majority of previous battles, should take place in the afternoon, and it was hoped thereby to surprise the enemy with a daylight assault.

Shortly before midday on August 18th the zero hour was changed and various other alterations made in the operation orders, and the Commanding Officer (Lieutenant-Colonel Mobbs) decided to meet all O.C. companies in the support line. A deep T-trench was selected for this interview, and the Commanding Officer had barely outlined the new orders when a shell, striking the top of the trench, partially buried the occupants. On extricating themselves it was found that the Commanding Officer had been wounded in the shoulder-blade, and that his back was already stiffening, and it was feared that his spine had been affected. Captain H. Grierson (" A " Company) had been wounded and badly shaken ; the other officers, Captain R. Gurney and Captain H. B. King, had escaped without injury. Captain Grierson had to be evacuated, and Lieutenant-Colonel Mobbs, much against his will, had to be sent down the line, leaving Captain H. B. King to take command. Shortly before zero, however, Major Murphy (2nd Leinster Regiment) was sent to take command of the assault, arriving half an hour before zero.

At 2.45 p.m. the barrage lifted and the battalion left their trenches. Until right up to the German front line very few casualties were suffered. It was then discovered that a trench, invisible from the British line, was held in strength. " A " and " C " Companies suffered heavily from this trench ; " B " Company in support formed the second wave of the attack, and with the assistance of the reserve company (" D ") succeeded in capturing the greater part of the objective.

The attack on the flanks meanwhile had proceeded with varying success. That on the left, made by the 8rd Rifle Brigade, had taken its objective, and was in touch with the left of the battalion not far from two goods wagons that represented all that the bombardment had left of Guillemont Station. On the right, however, the 13th Middlesex Regiment, after reaching their first objective, had been cut down almost to a man by machine-gun fire from a strong point on their right that had so far resisted all assaults, and had been obliged to fall back almost to their original line, after leaving all four company commanders dead in the German line.

The situation was now serious for the 7th Northamptons ; their right flank was in touch with no one. It was, however, essential to hold on to this position, and Major Murphy, after visiting the position, sent back for a section of machine gunners to be sent up. These machine gunners lost heavily on the way up, and it was not found possible to equip even one complete team from the survivors that arrived, and thus I the night of August 18th-19th was an exceedingly anxious one. Small parties of the enemy were seen throughout the night creeping towards the new line, but the battalion Lewis gunners were able to deal with them, and no counter-attack developed. At dusk next day the battalion was relieved by the 8th Royal West Kent Regiment, and returned to the old trenches near Montauban. Major Murphy rejoined his battalion as Commanding Officer, and Captain H. B. King resumed command. It was found that the casualties amounted to—

Officers : Killed, 5 ; wounded, 15 ; missing, 1.

Other ranks : Killed, 45 ; wounded, 258 ; missing, 49.

It transpired afterwards that nearly all those at first reported missing had really been killed or wounded.

The battalion had suffered severely in its first share in the Somme Battle, but it was realized that the battalion must expect more fighting before it left that area.

The battalion history also notes that Second Lieutenant C F Saunders was wounded during the battle of Loos in September 1915 and evacuated from the battalion.

Steve.

[philgb]

Max couple more photos for you

Photo g2 was taken from the quarry area facing back to Trones wood. photo g1 is the lane leading past the quarry area up to the Marsden Smedley memorial

Phil

[MBrockway]

Lots more topographical info on the defences of Guillemont, including more maps, photos and aerial photos, in these two Topics ...

73rd Hanoverian Fusiliers Guillemont

Sunken Lane, Guillemont

[Max Garrety]

My sincere thanks to all of you for your various posts and interesting news that Charles was injured at Loos. Is there a unit/sub-unit boundary annotated on any plan for the 7th anywhere?

Max

[Stebie9173]

Second Lieutenant Saunders wounding is mentioned in the Notes section of the war diary entry for 27th September 1915. It just refers to Sec. Lt. Saunders, but the battalion history notes "C. F. Saunders".

Have you got a copy of his officers file / service record? I haven't copied it myself but the physical file is noted in the National Archives "Discovery" catalogue. That might give some clues as to how long he was out of action. He was commissioned on 22nd December 1914 according to the London Gazette.

Steve.

[Max Garrety]

Hi Steve,

I'm waiting to get a copy of his records from the national archives before we go over to see the site. Have you visited the NA and is it relatively straightforward to get the copy?

Max

[Stebie9173]

If you go on site then you need to register for a readers card when you get there - it needs about half an hour and ID (something with picture and/or address - so Driver's licence and utility bill). The card will get you into the original documents section. Then you order the file (a buff folder with various papers attached by a treasury tag) which arrives in your designated pigeon-hole within an hour. I then usually read/take digital photos as required (checking the latter are legible).

I have not ordered one online but they scan them and e-mail them I believe based on sheets of paper to copy.

These files are actually the correspondence files rather than actual service files (the proper files being lost in the Blitz) so are quite variable. A wounded officer would normally have medical reports in the file (no always there if the officer was killed) plus commission documents, etc.

Steve.

[Guest Rory Daniel]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2014 at 08:43, Max Garrety said:

^{Good morning,}

^{My great uncle, 2Lt Charles Saunders, C Coy, 7 Northants was killed on 18 Aug on the attack at Guillemont Quarry (courtesy of some poorly co-ordinated RA barrage; all the C Coy officers were wiped ou). We're going to see his grave in a couple of weeke but apart from the accounts in the 7th's War Diary and the maps therein, I can't seem to find a map with clear indications of the first and second objectives (incl. Guillemont Quarry. Does anyone have any clearer maps of the area showing trench lines and if poss, where the barrage might have hit his Coy?}

^{Many thanks,}

^Max

My great grandfather Pte E Bozeat, B Coy, 7 Northants was also killed on 18th Aug in this battle and we are hoping to be at the site on 18/08 this year. Any information on the regiment or the events that day would be most appreciated.