War diaries - Gallipoli

[bob lembke]

We have been discussing the difficulties of Ottoman Turkish.

My wife has been ordering books in Turkish for two days. Today she was ordering reprints of the writings of four Turkish mystics from 1200 to 1500. She has to search thru the catalogs of her university's 16 libraries to be sure that the books faculty ask her to buy are not already held; such books are often very expensive.

She found the names of the four Ottoman writers written 28 different ways in the catalogs, due to the transliteration systems based on Ottoman Turkish, Modern Turkish, Arabic, French, German, and one English listing.

Bob Lembke

[rodonisle]

See also the list of War Diaries on the AWM site. The one of my grandfather's 23d battalion at ANZAC has been digitized and there are many others.

I also sent them one I collected, from my grandfather unit in Palistine - a pile of hand written orders, maps, drawings and some typed copies and other items. They are working on it.

I believe there is a push on to do WWII stuff their now - so I can only wait for the digitized copies to be posted of what I sent.

http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/index.asp[/url]

[Dogan Sahin]

Bob

As to attitude, find me the Great War Turkish War Memorial that actually lists the names of the men who died in a particular action. You won't find any. This is either because for the Turkish General Staff, the names of their war dead serve no political purpose or the names no longer exist, if indeed they existed at all. Take your pick.

Cheers

Bill

Zack

Turkish State Archives are available online, which has a superb catlogue system. The documents are originals and yes difficult, if not impossible, to read the original Ottoman script but many has been transcribed into latin Turkish and quite many are in French or English! Yes you do need to apply for permission (as you would in Kew) and perhaps pay someone to carry out research or translation for you (as you would in French archives or german) and currently Part one (1915) of war time records are available online-state archives. So by the look of it Turks have improved within the last two years Bill! As to having documents in English; well I dont see English archives translating their documents into Turkish! so we shouldnt expect something that we do not do ourselves.

regards

[Bryn]

I don't see anywhere where anybody suggested these records should be made available in English.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Dogan Sahin

G'day mate

First let me say how much I have appreciated your posts.

So by the look of it Turks have improved within the last two years Bill!

Can't argue with you here mate. The Turkish government has put a great deal of money, effort and political muscle into this area and I am impressed with the results. The publishing of Sehitlerimiz on CD is nothing more than miraculous and has given a window into the Turkish casualties. On the downside, unless one has friends in Turkey, it is impossible to order a copy over the net. You have also put links to archival material which has been welcomed.

So after a year, things have changed in this department.

"Yes you do need to apply for permission (as you would in Kew)"

Ask for permission??? That is no change. At the AWM in Canberra, I just walk in and get the required records. I have never asked for permission yet. So as far as I am concerned, this part is still draconian.

As to having documents in English; well I dont see English archives translating their documents into Turkish! so we shouldnt expect something that we do not do ourselves.

I am not quite sure where you came to the conclusion that I have made such a demand. The clearest articulation of my comments were made at:

Jan 26 2007, 10:33 AM Post #53

I am not asking for the records to be translated.

I cannot make it any clearer than that. No comments of mine on this thread contradict this summary. If you wish to suggest that, you might like to quote my post which makes such a plea.

Cheers

Bill

[Dogan Sahin]

Erickson

....

With the best will in the world, Turklish is not substitute for gooder English in found what the mens see. This is an embarrassment for the Turkish General Staff. Not only are the books no more than short notes lacking any great coherence, the translations display an arrogance that is truly breathtaking - they don't give a toss what their readers think. If they did, they would have at least hired a proof reader who is conversant with the English language, not a crony who spent ten days at Majorca stopping at the bodegas selling fish and chips and Watney's Red Barrel and calamares and two veg and sitting in their Speedos squirting Timothy White's suncream all over flesh with a whole lot of English tourists and then claiming they have absorbed English culture and thus gained linguistic competency. It requires something a bit more than a couple hack report writers and one barely literate translator to make "very well produced official histories".

But heck, what would I know?

Cheers

Bill

Well said Bill!. On the other hand I must add that in some diaries I have read it is the Soldier himself who exagarattes the situation, portraying himself as a self proclaimed hero, a good fighter etc.. So in terms of Translation ethics, the translator has no choice but to translate exactly!...Eg. I am currently working on POWs kept in Afionkarahisar in particular and I was invited to speak at a gathering of what might be a "sponsor" group. Everything went well until the time I suggested that " a particular mazlum bey had indeed been very cruel and may have raped (I say may because I have not seen any concrete evidence as to that actually happening, Nor have I seen any official complaints on the part of the soldiers whom are claimed to be raped -it may very well have been consentual) I was reproached! by one of the persons in the group and the whole thing went sour..It became impossible to convince the guy that "this is war and anything can happen and a lot of atrocities on both sides did infact happen) so the translator has difficulties in such sensitive subjects. What do you do? write the whole truth of what you read or change the wording?

regards

Regards

[Guest]

dogan

those who write history have to be loyal to those about whom history is written,

remember what ataturk says about it

regards

william

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Dogan

G'day mate

Your sad experience is replicated many times over. The reality is that many of the folks who "dabble" in history do so with a fixed agenda in which "accuracy" is an inconvenient truth. There are many good folks who stumble over the truth, pick themselves up, look around and walk on as if nothing had happened. These fora present excellent case studies of this phenomena. The unfortunate fact is that many people interpret the past through mythology, legend and fantasy and when an inconvenient truth gets in the way, howl down the messenger rather than examine the contents of the message. I could give you an extensive list of all the Australian fantasies and they will be similar in kind to many of the Turkish fantasies. Despite the free availability of information that contradicts the fantasy, the legends persist.

Many key institutions and lazy academics reiterate this fantasy which then gives it an aura of credulity. My discussions with the historians at the Australian War Memorial leave me wondering if they even read the material available in their own files or believe that the AWM should present itself as a circus to get bums on seats rather than concentrate on integrity. A key display deals with the work of TE Lawrence underpinned by the Beatles "Sergeant Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band" album, two very obvious Light Horse icons. And even worse, the Hall of Remembrance is now hired out for cocktail parties - sort of like having a dinner in a cemetery. To me this seems all in bad taste and buying into the detritus of public mythology in order to turn a national sacrifice into a circus rather than honouring the story of the men and women about whom the memorial was created. But what would a Cassandra like me know? Obviously nothing as I am persistently told by senior management when they deign to respond.

But what the heck. We have all the Hooray Harries who infest these fora to abuse historians who mention any of this because somehow this is sacrilege. The Hooray Harries, who never do a lick of scholastic work themselves, are usually instant experts on the work produced by the scholars and ready to damn at the drop of a hat because it contains an inconvenient truth.

So if I want a comfortable existence, my MO would be to put my integrity on hold, and write stories that buy into the mythology held by the many and fanned by those in positions of power with an agenda to pursue. You have that same option too Dogan. If you wrote books about the peace and prosperity that followed in the wake of Ottoman occupation or that Attaturk is the only historical subject worthy of discussion or the Armenian situation was self inflicted by the Armenians, then you will be celebrated as a "true" historian worthy of note. But you will also have had to hang your integrity up by the door before entering this realm.

Your story indicates that you are a man of integrity and have already experienced the conflict between legend and inconvenient truth. You will join a club where the naysayers are nothing more than nasty, small minded people who only feel adequate when attacking others rather than contributing to a debate. It is easier to insult than it is to research. It is easier to hurl abuse than it is to think through a proposition. It looks like you have graduated to this club. Welcome.

The last badge of membership is to have some groupies who follow you everywhere with the express purpose of destroying your public work. Because they have not the wit nor the ability to think of anything original themselves, every piece of research provides oxygen to iterate the same tired old trash which they believe are exciting and innovative ways of insulting a person. I have the 3 stooges. Bryn, another contributor to this thread, has also got his groupies. Perhaps you will get your own groupies. If you persist in telling history with integrity rather than reiterating fantasy, this is the inevitable result.

Best of luck with your work. Keep checking your integrity because it is easy to get it compromised along the way. You come across as a very honest man which is a characteristic of a great historian but also a formula for being a lone voice.

Cheers

Bill

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Purhaps these documents could be translated in modern Turkish rather then left in the old otoman which is very hard to translate.

But of cause there are now a number of people now leaning old Otoman so these new released documents are being translated.

Either way I am glad to see Turkish records being opened which can benifit all, including Turks and others.

S.B

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

This thread seemed to bo most relevant. I found out that a harvey Broadbent and ODTU of Turkey are engaged in researching Ottoman Archives. here is the extarct from the submittion for those interested: I have the full submittion in PDF if anyone wants to have a copy.

"Researching Gallipoli:

The Gallipoli Centenary Turkish

Archives Research Project

an address1 to the Institute on 26 February 2008 by

Associate Professor Harvey Broadbent2

Senior Research Fellow, Department of Modern History,

Macquarie University

Director, Gallipoli Centenary Turkish Archives Research Project

Little is known from primary historical sources about the Turkish conduct of the Gallipoli

campaign in 1915, which the Turks refer to as the Canakkale campaign. This knowledge gap is

about to be filled by the Gallipoli Centenary Turkish Archives Research Project, which Harvey

Broadbent, the project’s director, describes herein."

[johnshep]

Dogan

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Yes, I would be interested in the full submission, please. PM perhaps?

John

[jwsleser]

Dogan

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Yes, I would be interested in the full submission, please. PM perhaps?

John

Dogan

I am interested in a copy as well.

Jeff

[digger5410]

G'day Zack this link will get you to the Australian WW1 War Diaries then it's just a matter of choosing what Corps etc from the list.

http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/

[Dogan Sahin]

Dogan

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Yes, I would be interested in the full submission, please. PM perhaps?

John

Hi,

Just post your PM adress and I shall be gladd to forward the file.

Thanks

Dogan

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Yes, I would be interested in the full submission, please. PM perhaps?

John

Jaff just let me know of your email,

thanks

[Dogan Sahin]

Re : My comment 19 march 2008 above :

I later discovered that Jennifer lawless has established that the alleged rape of 2 british soldiers by Mazlum bey, the POW camp commander in afion at the time , was not true. 2 british doctors testified that such acts did not take place. So RIP mazlum bey, you are cleared off at last that offence..

regards