9th Notts & Derby at Gallipoli

[Jim_Grundy]

Pals,

I was looking at a Great War era local newspaper this morning when I came across a remarkable account by a Nottingham (Beeston to be precise) member of the 9th Sherwood Foresters of his experiences at Gallipoli. I've reproduced it here, not only for interest, but to see if other people have come across similar stories that made it into contemporary press reports (which is what I find more remarkable than the story itself, really!).

Let Pte Joseph Stenson take up the story:

"We left Frenshaw on June 30th, and arrived at Liverpool Docks next morning, when we set sail on the "Empress of Britain". Our first stop was at Malta, then Alexandria, next Lemnos Harbour, where we transhipped for Gallipoli. We landed at Cape Helles on July 21st, and we were in the trenches the same night facing the famous Atchi Baba. I shall never forget the trenches there: it was like walking on a sponge, for they were full of dead and the stench was abominable. There were also dead on the parapet, and it was common to see hands and legs sticking out of the ground as one passed. Some of the bodies were merely covered with a bag and a layer of soil, which caused millions of flies to congregate.

"When we made the memorable landing at Suvla Bay we were packed like herrings on lighters. But, except for a few bullets whizzing and occasionally striking the boat, there was very little to get excited about. Directly after jumping ashore, we extended out with fixed bayonets, and the order was given for no man to fire. We advanced inland some distance, and I saw one poor chap shot clean through the head. We then dug ourselves in till morning and stopped there all the next day.

“It was afterwards stated we should have taken possession of the hills where so many lives were lost. On August 7th we advanced about a quarter of a mile with nothing doing, where we made a good trench and stayed there till next day. It was on August 9th when the next advance took place at sunrise, and I shall never forget running the wire for our last place. We were being popped at, and three of us had lucky escapes. By this time seven officers were out of action, and we went on until we came to the “first aid” dressing station. I think if ever my heart was in my mouth it was that day. The moans of the men were awful, for many were burnt to death where the grass had caught fire.

“The signal officer took some men to reinforce a company, and it was about this time that Humphries, Martin and Turton got killed. A corporal of the machine gun section, drunk and behaving in a mad manner, giving the position away, was promptly ordered to be shot by the officer, and when a stretcher bearer got up to shoot him, he was shot himself.

“Things were quiet the next two days, but the snipers were busy, and a shot undoubtedly meant for another man who was exposed struck me. I felt as if someone had given me a bang on the head, and I was knocked silly for the time being.”

The battalion war diary has not survived, unfortunately, and there is no history for the Sherwood Foresters at Gallipoli, so such accounts are priceless (especially to me whose grandfather served with the battalion). However, has anyone ever come across anything like this - quite so stark - in a contemporary newspaper before? I have read many over the years but have never come across one where a British soldier is reported to ordered to be shot before. I wonder how Pte. Stenson got this letter past the censor!?!?

Cheers,

Jim

[Stuart Brown]

Jim,

Very interesting (to me) thank you for posting it.

I came across a letter to a newspaper from a man in the RNAS (cars) relating to their opposed landing in Africa (if I remember correctly).

[Will O'Brien]

Jim

I've done a great deal of trawling through period newspapers & I have never seen anything like this. The only vaguely similar article I've seen was a pretty graphic description of the death of a local casualty who was blown into several pieces by shell fire. Not the nicest thing to read if you were the next of kin

[Cliff. Hobson]

"On August 7th we advanced about a quarter of a mile with nothing doing, where we made a good trench and stayed there till next day". It was on.....

Lt. Frederick Brown, 9th Sherwood Foresters K.I.A. 7th August 1915, Commemorated Helles Memorial, "nothing doing" seems somewhat curious.

[Jim_Grundy]

Cliff

I don't suppose you have to be doing much to get shot at, especially by snipers. If you take a look at the casualties for the 9th Battalion for this period, you will see that what happened on 7th August was "nothing" compared to the events of a couple of days later. No consolation to Lieutenant Brown and his family for sure but isn't that just another incidence of "Nothing of Importance", "All Quiet on...."?

There was only a small covering force under a German officer at Suvla at the time of the landings and I am sure that is what gave rise to the "nothing doing" line. It was written, after all, by someone who was there!

I think it is widely accepted that the relative British inactivity at Suvla, especially when compared to the efforts of Mustafa Kemal, "ordering" his men to die, was one of THE missed opportunities of the whole campaign. It certainly puzzled the Turks and gave rise to the unfortunate and erroneous beliefs that were portrayed in the film "Gallipoli", an early example of Mel Gibson's seeming Anglophobia.

Cheers,

Jim

[michaeldr]

Cliff,

There does seem to be a little uncertainty about exactly when 2nd Lt F. C. Brown actually died; R. W. Walker in his 'To What End Did They Die - Officers Died at Gallipoli' says he was "Missing Believed Killed 7th August 1915."

Westlake's 'British Regiments at Gallipoli' gives

"Landed 'B' Beach, Suvla Bay (6th Aug 15). Moved forward and dug in on line running from south-west corner of Salt Lake to the sea. Moved forward during night (7th/8th Aug) to Hill 50. Attack on Ismail Oglu Tepe (9th Aug). Advanced - 'B' and 'C' Companies in front, 'A' in support, 'D' in reserve. Battalion records note that by 8am. a satisfactory line of defence had been taken up at a cost of 8 officers, 150 other ranks."

The writer in the newspaper already described one chap getting hit in the head, confirming that they were under fire from very early on. Snipers were a huge problem here and I suppose that 'Nothing doing' rather depended on where in that line from the Salt Lake to the sea your company was actually placed on the 7th.

I agree that it's a pity that we do not have more to go, however I don't think that the account should necessarily be seen as inconsistent with the fact of the death of 2nd Lt. Brown

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Cliff. Hobson]

Jim & Michael,

I take your point and thank you for your observations, I knew Fred Brown's Parents, delivered their papers when a lad ( that gives my age away)

His Sister was a frequent visitor to our house, Fred was studying for Holy Orders when he enlisted.

Regards Cliff.

[Andrew Hesketh]

Jim,

Fascinating, thanks for posting it. We've communicated before so you'll be aware of my interest in the 9th at Suvla.

Cliff,

Re: 'your' man killed on the 7th. Unless you know specifically that the 7th was the day in question I would be a little open-minded. 9th SF casualties between 7th and 9th August are very difficult to date and not always reliable. The bulk would have been incurred on the 9th but there would appear to have been a lot of confusion in the battalion as to who was where on the previous couple of days. For example. I have a man listed as KIA on the 7th on the CWGC, recorded as 7th-9th on SDITGW but, from a diary extract I saw some time ago, apparantly killed on the 9th. My research tends to back up the statement of "nothing doing" on the 7th. In fact, without being too cynical, it just about sums up the whole Suvla experience on that day. If only they had pressed on when the opportunity was there for the taking.........

All the best,

Andrew

[Martyn Gibson]

Jim,

A fascinating insight into what is something of a black hole with regard

to the 9th Sherwood Foresters, as you said no war diaries survived.

I would be very interested in anything else you find in the local papers regarding this regiment but especially anything about 12779 Pte Robert Charles Britland, who hailed from Cromford. He died on 15th Sep 1915 aged 20 and is buried in the Pieta Military Cemetary Malta.

Many thanks for posting this article

Regards

Martyn

[Stuart Brown]

I would be very interested in anything else you find in the local papers regarding this regiment but especially anything about 12779 Pte Robert Charles Britland, who hailed from Cromford. He died on 15th Sep 1915 aged 20 and is buried in the Pieta Military Cemetary Malta.

Martyn,

Just a bit more:-

"Private Robert Britland of Cromford is seriously in hospital in Malta. Private Harry Britland has been wounded in The Dardanelles . They are brothers , sons of Mr Robt Britland of Cromford and are with the 9th Sherwood Foresters". Local paper.

I visited Pieta Military Cemetery some years ago and took some pictures - do have any of the cemetery? They are somewhere!

Stuart

[Martyn Gibson]

Stuart,

Many thanks for that information, a little bit more to add to my collection on this family. What paper did that article appear in?

I don't have any photographs of the cemetary, if you do find them I would happily pay for any copies.

Regards

Martyn

[Stuart Brown]

Martyn,

Paper was the Derby Mercury, bear with me regarding the picture.

Stuart

[Martyn Gibson]

Thankyou Stuart.

Just to give you a bit more background. The Britland family are from my wifes side. The information you supplied me with threw up a suprise for her as she was unaware of Harry.

I am still try to ascertain what Robert Britland died from. I must presume that Harry survived the war as his name does not appear on the Cromford Memorial.

Thanks again for your help

Regards

Martyn

[Guest paddy]

I think it is widely accepted that the relative British inactivity at Suvla, especially when compared to the efforts of Mustafa Kemal, "ordering" his men to die, was one of THE missed opportunities of the whole campaign. It certainly puzzled the Turks and gave rise to the unfortunate and erroneous beliefs that were portrayed in the film "Gallipoli", an early example of Mel Gibson's seeming Anglophobia.

9,996 9,997 9,998 9,999

Instead of trying to stay calm, perhaps I should have been summarising what was actually going on at Anzac, as distinct from Helles, and certainly as distinct from Suvla, during those few days in August.

Regardless of what is now written, the Aussies & Kiwis apparently believed that they were distracting the Turks, for the specific objective of enabling the British to walk in at Suvla and take the high ground. That nothing much was happenning at Suvla was painfully obvious to, and often in full view of, the desperate & dissapointed Anzacs, and, tragically for all involved to the Turks.

So before this topic gets too far out of hand, I would invite you to reconsider your assessment. That there was bad, and spilled blood, attributed to those tragic days is painfully obvious. It should not prevent due recognition being given to the individual officer or soldier who did what he believed was required of him.

However, I personally challenge the sentiments of your quotation and am prepared to debate it with you either on or off forum. The decision is yours.

Patrick Gavan

[Stuart Brown]

I am still try to ascertain what Robert Britland died from.

Martyn,

By chance I had photographed Robert Britland's grave.

Found a bit more:-

"Another Cromford Soldier Pte Robert Britland, of the 9th Sherwood Foresters, has paid the price of service with his life. His parents were aware that he was in hospital at Malta suffering from enteric, and on Monday the distressing news was received that he had died on the 16th inst. The deceased was only 20 yrs of age." Both articles, same paper dated 24.9.15.

The WW1 headstones were horizontal with three names to a stone ; the headstone appeared to be made of marble . It was an old cemetery in a built up area.

Send me your email address and I will send you a couple of images.

Regards

Stuart

[michaeldr]

Paddy,

I don't care how high you counted to this time

it seems you still need to go higher my friend

Now, deep breath

The comments made in no way denigrate the Australian casualties nor their contribution. The comments don't even try to excuse the British B*lls-Up at Suvla.

I believe that all our friend was trying to say was that the British action or lack of it, contributed enormously to misunderstandings over the years, misunderstanding that may have been exploited by others for their own reasons and he quoted the famous film as an example

Now take a look at what another Australian says on the subject of that movie:

"Peter Wier's 1981 film 'Gallipoli' is elegiac, well written and beautifully scored; it captures an Australia that no longer exists and a brief age of innocence. The film is so well done that for many Australians it is the reference point on the Gallipoli campaign. Yet its final scenes, built around the fourth charge at the Nek, are inaccurate and unfair to the British. The film suggests the Australians at the Nek were being sacrificed to help the landing at Suvla. It also suggests that a British officer was ordering successive waves of Australians to run out and commit suicide.

The scale of the tragedy of the Nek was mostly the work of two Australian incompetents, Hughes and Antill. Hughes was the brigade commander and he didn't command; Antill wasn't the brigade commander and he did."

'Gallipoli' by L. A. Carlyon, pages 498-9

I am convinced that no offence was meant and I also feel that none should have been taken.

Life is too short Paddy.

With very best regards

Michael D.R.

[Jim_Grundy]

Patrick

Sorry, I'm not sure about the point you're making.

I'm especially sorry if my post angered you and I have no wish to raise your blood pressure further. If we disagree, we disagree. Let's agree to that and leave it at that.

Best wishes,

Jim

[Guest paddy]

G'day Michael, G'day Jim, G'day Kate.

The main reason I'm sitting here is that the Quack won't let me return to my Real Life. Some-one else is now leading my courses in Sky Diving, Martial Arts & Chess. That this substitute life could be more threatening to the quality and actual extent of life had not been so evident. Until now.

Until then

Paddy

[Martyn Gibson]

Stuart,

This is fantastic, e-mail address on its way to you.

Martyn

[Bryn]

"It also suggests that a British officer was ordering successive waves of Australians to run out and commit suicide." (Les Carlyon on the movie 'Gallipoli').

The officer, 'Colonel Robinson,' (based on 'Bull' Antill) who is portrayed in the movie "Gallipoli" as sending the 8th and 10th Light Horse Regiments to their destruction, appears several times throughout the movie. Each time he is wearing Australian uniform and insignia. I feel it's one of the great myths that's grown up around the movie that he is meant to represent a British officer. Nevertheless this has come to be an accepted 'fact,' bought into even by Les Carlyon. Robinson's accent would have been considered 'educated Australian' of that time.

Besides that, the action at The Nek was part of the Battle of Sari Bair. Antill was following orders issued by General Godley. Godley was under the orders of Sir Ian Hamilton. We could of course continue up the ladder assigning blame, but it's true that Antill could have stopped the charge and didn't, while the officers on the spot just across the gully at Pope's Hill stopped the attack that commenced there when it was obviously not succeeding. Marker flags were reported in the Turkish front trench at The Nek, however, indicating that some members of the first or second wave had reached that objective, and Antill's dillemma was whether to support those men or not. Though the issue of the marker flags is controversial, a Turkish account by Sefik Bey, commander of the Turkish 27th Regiment, confirms that some of the Light Horse did enter the Turkish fire-trench and plant flags, but were quickly killed.

It will probably be of interest that, in the DVD version of 'Gallipoli' the phrase, 'None sir. Apparently they're just sitting round drinking cups of tea' (referring to the British landing at Suvla and in answer to the question, 'Are they meeting heavy opposition?'), has been overdubbed. The radio operator now says that, 'Apparently the officers have called a halt and are drinking tea.'

[michaeldr]

Very sorry to hear that your not 100% Paddy

and Yes, I know it can be very frustrating at times

Get well soon mate

Bryn - many thanks for your comments

Over the years that film certainly has generated more heat than light

I subscribe to the notion that in the suffering at Gallipoli, what we have in common far out weighs any differences, real or imagined. I don't want to labour this point or to take up too much space but let me offer another few sentences from Carlyon [pages 434-5] to remind us of what was happening a little further south at this very same time

"Instead of a diversion, Street and his helpers delivered a typical Helles battle. Hunter-Weston could have sued them for plagiarism. The artillery support was inadequate. Trenches were taken and quickly lost again. Communications broke down. Corps headquarters had no notion of what was happening at the front, but they issued orders anyway; that was what they were good at................................

In 24 hours VIII Corps had amassed 3469 casualties for the gain of a vineyard."

People are fond of reminding us that '14-'18 was a "learning curve"

I feel that Gallipoli shows just how low the starting point of that curve was

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest paddy]

Some of you may have seen this Official Admiralty Photo

[michaeldr]

Paddy,

Here is one of my favourites,

Its from 'North Beach Gallipoli 1915'

the sketches at Gallipoli of Major Leslie Fraser Standish Hore

8th Light Horse Regiment (Victoria)

the copyright belongs to the Mitchell Library, State Library of New South Wales

and I believe that the booklet can be also be seen at www.dva.gov.au and the drawings at www.anzacsite.gov.au

With best regards

Michael D.R.

[Guest paddy]

G'day Mick

Touche!

ooRoo

Paddy

[Geoff S]

Michael,

My apologies, but can you be more specific about the source/home of the picture you attached above?

I cannot remember seeing it before.

Geoff S

Paddy - How is your head wound coming along?