Matt Dixon Posted 11 November , 2003 Share Posted 11 November , 2003 Am I correct in thinking that of the 19 mines, only 17 went off on the day, and an 18th in a thunder storm many years later? If so where is the remaining mine.....surely they must have some idea, or is some property developer going to get a nasty shock some time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSeptember1918 Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 Matt The full compliment of 19 mines went of at Messines . But originally it was to be a blast from 21 mines . Plumer decided that the two Southernmost charges were too far right of the ridge to be of any use , they were ordered to be prepared for firing , but held in reserve . Each contained 30,000 lbs of ammonal . The Brits intended digging them up after the war and assured the Belgiums that this would be done . But after the German advance in 1918 , the exact location of the charges was lost and they were abandoned . Your totally correct that one blew up on July 17th 1955 , set of apparently by an electrical storm , it did slight damage to some distant property , but caused no casualties . The other is still undiscovered . This is taken directly from " War Underground " , another interesting read that is just about Messines is " Pillars of Fire " , if your interested atall . Phil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 Phil I though the approximate location of the last mine was known to be under or near a farm house, can't remember the name off-hand. Wasn't there talk of the Durand Group going to investigate this mine. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 The 1955 mine blew under the old German position called The Birdcage at Le Pelerin, east of Plug Street Wood. The other one is located close by, according to some sources, having been part of the same tunnel complex. These were the two southernmost mines of the 21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 I believe the following is correct:- The groundwork for the attack on the ridge had been underway since late 1915 with the unofficial commencement of deep tunnels from British trenches to beneath the strongpoints of the German defences. These mines were the deepest and longest to be excavated on the Western Front, and are a unique feature of the attack. By the time the Tunnelling Companies received approval for the work in January 1916, six deep shafts (labelled “Deep Wells”) already existed. A total of 12 tunnels led to 25 charge chambers, of which a total of nineteen were exploded to herald the attack (one was lost to flooding, one discovered by the Germans, and four abandoned, one of which exploded in July 1955). The nineteen exploded contained over 500 tons of explosive. The above came together as a result of research in:- Barrie, Alexander. "War Underground: the Tunnellers of the Great War". (Staplehurst: Spellmount, 2000). Edmonds, James E. "Military Operations France and Belgium 1917. (Volume II: 7th June – 10th November: Messines and Third Ypres [Passchendaele])". (London: Imperial War Museum, facsimile reprint). Grieve, W. Grant and Bernard Newman. "Tunnellers: the Story of the Tunnelling Companies, Royal Engineers, during the World War". (Uckfield: Naval and Military Press, facsimile reprint). Passingham, Ian. "Pillars of Fire: the Battle of Messines Ridge June 1917". (Stroud: Sutton, 1998). Spagnoly, Tony and Ted Smith. "Cameos of the Western Front: Salient Points One" (Barnsley: Leo Cooper, 1998) and "Cameos of the Western Front: Salient Points Three" (Barnsley: Leo Cooper, 2001) So three mines continue to slumber under the southern Flanders fields! Not quite as clever as it looks - I've just researched this for my MA course!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest franky Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 For the 1917 offensive 24 mines were placed in total. One at La Petite Douve was intercepted by the Germans. The four southernmost were not exploded for tactical reasons of which one went off in 1955. That makes a total of four still left and not one as Barrie stated. The main source for Barrie's book were interviews with veterans. The official Tunnellers' history published by Grieve, gives the correct number as you can also read in the original second army documents at the PRO. Barrie was wrong and all later authors followed them without looking in any original sources. I am actually working on an article about the three non-exploded Plugstreet mines and I can already follow their thrace untill 1923... An interesting research Franky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Posted 12 November , 2003 Share Posted 12 November , 2003 Waouh! I like to walk sometimes with my dog in Ploegsteert woods (La Hutte, Le Gheer). I did not know it was so dangerous!!... Annie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Here are a few pictures of the mines that I was lucky enough to get on a flight over the area thanks to Ian McHenry. Unfortunately I cannot remember his excellent commentary and so leave it to others to identify them all. Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Another. Sorry about the size but I don't know how to make them smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 I can feel those stripes on my arm now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 More Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Last One. Could I have put these all on to one post? Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Dear All, I have it somewhere in my mind that a team of archaeologists were using geophysical techniques to look for the 'missing mine' and that it might have been published in Antiquity. If this turns out to be nonsense I'm sorry, but it is Friday and I'm tired, cold and wet through after a horrible walk home. I imagine they might use Ground Sensing Radar if in fact anybody actually did this and I'm not just completely bonkers. Simon. (downgraded to B2, unfit to be killed by either side). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 I have said this before in relation to the subject of the missing mines, but I find it astounding that given the amount of survey work which would have gone into the construction of the galleries no record was kept! Surely the planners at GHQ would have had plans showing the locations, and these can't all have been lost? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Unfortunately I cannot remember his excellent commentary and so leave it to others to identify them all. Danny Oh oh! A competition! Unfortunately I will be away until Thursday, by which time we will have dozens of correct entries. Dare I suggest we call the photos 1,2,3,4 etc? Come on chaps and chapesses, don't leave it to me late next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 Mr McHenry may correct me but number 4 looks like Petit Bois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 No 1 is Spanbroekmolen with Peckham Farm in the background No 2 is Spanbroekmolen with Peckham Farm in the background with Maedelstede further back No 3 is Maedelstede, with Peckham Farm behind, Spanbroekmolen hidden by trees and shrubs, with Kruisstadt Farm in the background. I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 17 November , 2003 Share Posted 17 November , 2003 Max, You are correct, Photo 4 is Petit Bois. Greenwoodman, You are correct also on photo 1,2 and 3. We should have been observer/pilots in the RFC Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FriedrichhJolly Posted 24 November , 2003 Share Posted 24 November , 2003 Very, very good thread you have in here, gentlemen! Very impressive photographs as well, danny! Thanks! I just want to add the results of Sir Herbert Plumer's mines that day: The 19 detonated mines were sited as follows: Name of Mine Charge (lbs) Crater Diameter Hill 60 A 53 500 191 feet Hill 60 B 70 000 260 feet St Eloi 95 600 176 feet Hollandscheschour 1 34 200 183 feet Hollandscheschour 2 14 900 105 feet Hollandscheschour 3 17 500 141 feet Petit Bois 1 30 000 175 feet Petit Bois 2 30 000 217 feet Maedelstede Farm 94 000 217 feet Peckham 87 000 240 feet Spanbroekmolen 91 000 250 feet Kruisstraat 1 30 000 235 feet Kruisstraat 4 19 500 (1 &4 linked explosions) Kruisstraat 2 30 000 217 feet Kruisstraat 3 30 000 202 feet Ontario Farm 60 000 200 feet Trench 127 Left 36 000 182 feet Trench 127 Right 50 000 210 feet Trench 122 Left 20 000 195 feet Trench 122 Right 40 000 228 feet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Danny, fantastic photos, hope you don't mind as I have borrowed the Spanbroekmolen ones to compliment the photos taken from the ground in July this year Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 25 November , 2003 Admin Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Concerning a hole in the ground..... Someone told me that you can now access the Caterpillar crater . Anyone have any info? Thanks, Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Michelle Yes I visited it last year on a tour. Access is through an adjcent field. You enter by a gate and walk along the fence line to the wood immediately behind the field. I'm afraid I dont have a map here that I can scan but I'm sure somebody could give you exact directions. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 25 November , 2003 Admin Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Thanks Geoff, I'd like to have a look someday. Regards, Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Michelle, If you walk over the railway bridge at hill 60 (With the hill behind you), you will see a turnstyle on your left side. Go through the turnstyle and follow the fenceline running parralell to the railway. At the other side of the field go through another turnstyle. Follow the track in front of you which will bend around to the right after about 50 meters. As the track bends right you will notice that there is a short sharp incline in front of you, this is the lip of the crater. The view from the top of the lip never ceases to amaze me. It is the only crater of the Messines mines to really show depth perception (The others, apart from Hill 60 A, being filled with water). The crater has the biggest diameter of any of the messines mines. The beautiful setting it is in today really betrays the hell that was visited on this place in the early hours of the 7th June 17. In the summer two weeping willow trees reach out over the crater from opposite sides. It makes a great place to picnic and is not too widely visited, Yet! Next time you are in Ypres make sure its on your itinery. Hope the directions are easy to follow. Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 25 November , 2003 Admin Share Posted 25 November , 2003 Thanks Iain Will do. The instructions are great. Regards, Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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