Confused with service numbers

[barrieduncan]

Hi Folks,

I've come across this chap from The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), I think he was 2nd Battalion (at least post-war he was second). I just checked for his MIC on the NA website and found two, one for his campaign medals and one for his MM. The one for his campaign medals has me really stumped as I don't think i've seen so many different service numbers recorded on them, and I'm wondering what it all means:

Medal card of McGuiness, Robert

Corps Regiment No Rank

Scottish Rifles 1646 Private

Scottish Rifles 323454 Private

Scottish Rifles 63307 Private

Scottish Rifles 43384 Private

Scottish Rifles 3234542 Serjeant

Is the last, 7 digit, number usual for a WW1 service man?

I've come across another Scottish Rifleman, a John McGuinness this time, who also has a seven digit service number, this time 3233488. This chap joined up in 1907, but i'm not sure if he was a regular or a territorial, and left the army in 1930.

Are the seven digit numbers Territorial numbers? Why does Robert McGuiness have five different numbers all with the Cameronians?

His MM is gazetted here by the way:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

Cheers in advance,

Barrie - who is soon heading to the pub as he is going insanse!

[Armoured Farmer]

Barrie,

7 figure numbers were introduced in 1920 as truly Army Service numbers, which when issued to a man followed him through his career.

Regiments were initially allocated ablock of numbers. These numbers are recorded in the Appendix to Army Order 338 of 1920

The Highland Light Infantry were allocated 3,233,001 to 3,377,000, I cannot find the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) in the list.

Hope this helps a bit.

Regards

Farmer

[Sue Light]

Strangely my list has the Cameronians as:

3233001 - 3299000

and the Highland Light Infantry as:

3299001 - 3377000

Sue

[Armoured Farmer]

Sue,

My list is on page 450 of Howard Williamson's The Collector and Researchers Guide to the Great War.

The Cameronians have been obviously been ommitted from this list and they should be between the KOSBs and the HLI.

I'm going to pencil them in.

Thanks for that.

Regards

Farmer

[barrieduncan]

Thanks Farmer and Sue, that makes sense, these chaps both served into the 1930s, so I'm guessing they were both regulars or at least territorials. Just need to figure out what the other 4 numbers are about now

It's such a pain having two McGuinness/McGuiness' in the same regiment/battalion, anytime I find a mention of one in the records i'm never sure what one it is - they both finished as RSMs just to add to the confusion

[Armoured Farmer]

Barrie,

There may (only a possibility) be a clue on the BW & VM medal roll for the bloke. It should list the numbers as this is where the MIC detail would have come from. If you're lucky there may be a battalion number linked to one or more numbers.

It could be worth a look.

Regards

Farmer

[Graham Stewart]

Just dropped into see this one as numbering is one of my passions and a quick look obviously shows a low numbered Territorial number 1646 renumbered 323454 in 1917, which was allotted to the 15th Bn, Scottish Rifles, a battalion which never served overseas.

This lad seems to have been backwards and forwards hence the additional numbering, but I reckon he would have been renumbered 43384, before 63307, and it all hinges on what units he served with at home, as they may not necessarily have been S.R.. Regimental numbers weren't dished out willy-nilly, there was a procedure to follow.

The final number is also intriguing as you'll notice it's virtually the same as his six figure number 323454, except a 2 is added which I find a liitle odd, as it's unusual to find the post 1920's numbers matching a wartime number. Which makes me wonder has a clerical error crept in here?

To be honest too much faith & emphasis is placed in Medal Index Cards, which is after all exactly what it is is an "index card". A truer picture emerges when combined with the Medal Roll Books which have the battalion in which they served. Further more if a Silver War Badge is in evidence, then more information can be gleaned, using all three item's(MIC, MRB & SWB).

Even then one has to be aware that these cards and books were put together by human beings and do suffer from clerical error as I've found on many occassion. The only way one can get to the bottom of what is going on is the hope that his service records survive, which give a more detailed account of his service history.

Graham.

[barrieduncan]

Thanks for having a look at this Graham. I wasn't sure if this chap was a territorial or a regular before the war. After the war (1922) this chap was in India with the 2nd Battalion (regulars) and I'm pretty sure he finished his service with the 2nd sometime in the 30s.

I'll check the post 1919 enlistment books to see if he joined the regulars after the war or if he is still down as a territorial.

I've got a pic of this guy wearing his medals; MM medal and ribbons for the trio, so he must have been overseas sometime in 1915 I reckon. The service numbers are quite intriguing as you say. He was gazetted for the MM in August 1918 with the number 43384.

How common is it for an MIC to list his post 1920 service number? I'm sure this is the first instance where I've seen the 7 digit numbers in a WW1 MIC. Maybe I should stop being a total tight **** and download the bleedin' card

Thanks again for all the help folks, much obliged to you all.

[barrieduncan]

Mmmmmm, not what I was expecting it to be

Shouldn't there be one for his war service medals too?

[barrieduncan]

And his MM card, showing him as being in the 9th Battalion (no mention in the 9th war diary of his MM by the way )

Just noticed it mentions something a bar to the MM, LG something 1926 - need to investigate this further!

[Armoured Farmer]

The bar reference looks like LG 11.6.24, Kurdistan 1923.

Searching the MIC database with 3234542 returns 3 cards, you've got two. The first is for the General Service Medal, you know the second is for the MM, the last one will be for his WWI campaign medals.

Regards

Farmer

[Graham Stewart]

Barrieduncan,

Thanks for downloading those two cards and as you rightly point out the M.M. card say 9th Bn, Scottish Rifles(43384). Plus we also have a "Kurdistan" clasp on a card which does show a Regular army number 3234542? So I'm beginning to think there's a clerical error here and 1636 may infact be his old regular army number and not T.F. as originally thought.

It's not unusual for regulars to be renumbered during the war, as I've come across the same for N.F.. The question is why are they renumbered? The possibility is that on recovery he was sent to a Training Reserve Battalion, who automatically renumber all those coming to them, except those who are on the training staff. Men are renumbered TR/?/******, but what I have found is that men being sent back overseas with their old units aren't being given their old numbers back, they're being renumbered. This is because the Training Reserve is regarded as a "new Corps".

As you say it would perhaps help if you could get hold of the pre-war nominal Roll Books to see if he's listed at all as a pre-war regular, or perhaps a search for his service records.

Graham.

[barrieduncan]

Farmer, never thought to search the MIC's based on his numbers, i'll download that one in the morning, cheers for the pointer.

Graham, i'll check the enlistment books when I get to work on Monday (they start in 1919, but his 7 digit number seems to fit in with recruits from 1920 onwards, possible he may have a mention, even if only an extension to service). I'll also check the regimental journal for a mention about his bar to the MM, hopefully it will mention somethin about his earlier service.

This chap was quite a character; a poet, a singer, and a champion boxer! What a combo

I'll post a pic up on Monday,

Thanks again folks, never had a question unanswered, what a team!

[barrieduncan]

Ok, i'm beginning to think that the powers to be are messin with my head now. I downloaded the third card (cheers Farmer) and it still doesn't cover his Great War medal entitlement!

I know this guy has Great War medals...he won his MM (first MM) in 1918, he must have at least a BWM and Victory Medal!

By the way, how gutting is the PTO at the bottom!!!!

[barrieduncan]

Here is the gazette for his bar to the MM:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

I'm pretty sure I can get a citation for this one, if not the first. Geez this guy is making me work for my money

[Armoured Farmer]

Barrie,

Now I'm confused!

We know of the three results for him on the MIC darabase when searching with 3234542. What is odd is that none of the three cards you've posted has the five separate numbers identified on one of the results.

Don't spend any more money on downloading cards. I'll be at Kew on Wednesday and will happily have a look, if only to satisfy my curiosity!

Regards

Farmer

[Graham Stewart]

Barrie,

As you can see from the last card where the clerical error has crept in 3434542 has been transcribed as 343454 and the 2 omitted. As we now see he's definately a Territorial, belonging to the 6th Bn, S.R. and was even awarded a T.E.M.

So far his service is;-

6th Bn, S.R.(6/1646). Probably a pre-war Territorial hence the low number.

9th Bn, S.R.(43384) & M.M.: He joined this battalion prior to 1917, if it had been later he would have had a six figure number.

2nd Bn, S.R.(3434542). A post-war enlistment and renumbered in 1920, which is when all new regimental numbers were introduced.

So where does 63307 fit in? Well in 1916 both the 5th & 6th Bns, Scottish Rifles amalgamated as the 5/6th Bn, S.R. and without a doubt a number of duplications would have appeared in the new battalion Nominal Roll. So I'm beginning to wonder if they were renumbered by issuing a block of numbers well in excess of what regimental records were using at the time. These new numbers would readily identify these men as 5/6th Bn members and do away with numbering duplication, long before the new six figure scheme was introduced in 1917, but it would be "in-house".

It's just a theory at present, but will look into it later on, and if it works out he would have been 6th Bn(6/1646); 5/6th Bn(63307); 9th Bn(43384) & 2nd Bn(3434542).

Graham.

[nfh249]

Phew, great detective work chaps! Just goes to show how sensible an 'Army Number' is compared to a 'Regimental/Battalion Number'.

Regards,

Neil

[barrieduncan]

Wow! I'm impressed Thanks for all the assistance on this one folks. I was really surprised when none of the cards I downloaded covered his war medals - the picture I have seen of this chap has him wearing his Military Medal, and what looks to be a 14-15 Trio. Now I know he was also entitled to a TEM and a GSM, so maybe need to re-evaluate said picture

Fingers crossed there will be something in the journal that can confirm whats been suggested already, after all, I do now have several dates I can check up on.

Farmer (sorry, I don't know your real name), if you could check for the MIC of his war service, that would be fantastic - the way things have went to so far, I could spend another tenner and still not get the right one

Cheers again people for all the help with this one.

Barrie

[barrieduncan]

Ok, well, I've pretty much spent all morning looking through the regimental journal trying to find info on our chap, Robert McGuiness. Not as easy as you might think, since our other chap, John McGuinness, was also in the regiment at the same time, and for several years, both were either CSMs or RSMs - add to this the fact that they usually did not give an initial, nor did they bother to spell the surname correctly, makingw this a rather slow, frustrating slog of a search.

Robert McGuiness was indeed entitled to a 1914/15 Trio, the journal records that he was given his Star in May 1923.

He was promoted from Sergeant to Colour-Sergeant and CQMS on the 28th of September 1925. The regimental gazette then shows his promotion of 17th September 1926:

"To W.O. (Cl. ii) and C.S.M., I.M. - Colour Sergt. (C.Q.M.S.) R. McGuinness, "B" (17/9/26)."

Not quite sure what the IM after the Company Sergeant Major means, any guesses?

Disappointingly, I couldnt find why Robert McGuiness was awarded the bar to his MM, only when he was given it, March 3rd 1926.

"Presentation of Iraq General Service Medal with Clasp Kurdistan

On March 3rd Major-General Sir Hastings Anderson, commanding Western Command, came and presented 420 N.C.O.'s and men of the Battalion with the medals which they had won in Kurdistan in 1923.

He also presented C.Q.M.S. McGuinness with the bar to his M.M. which he won in Kurdistan..."

Notice how they manage to mispell McGuiness on almost every occassion.

As we already knew from the MICs shown earlier, for whatever reason, Robert McGuinnes was also awarded a Territorial Efficiency Medal; this was given to him in August 1928, while supposedly with the 5/8th Territorial Battalion of the Cameronians as RSM. I can find no previous entry detailing his move from the 2nd Battalion to the 5th/8th, and every mention of him after the TEM still has him as 2nd Battalion - rather confused about this one I must admit.

He was given a Long Service and Good Conduct Medal in April of 1933, 20 years after he had originally joined (I found a list of Sergeants giving how long they had served and how many medals he had earned, in 1925 he had served 12 years and had 5 medals).

After much searching, I finally found his entry in the Enlistment Books (bottom of page):

In case the photographs turn out pretty garbage (most likely, I took them ) this is what they basically say:

3234542 (63307) R McGuinness, enlisted on 31st January 1919, aged 24 and 10 months, enlisted in Invergordon. Trade on Enlistmen was Hammerman (Engineer). He was born in Belfast, Co. Antrim, and his wife was called Maggie McCallum and his daughter was named Annie. They were married in Sion Mills on the 26th of August 1919, Annie was born four days later, on the 30th of August, 1919. His service is given as Home 31.1.19 to 8.10.1919, En Route 9.10.19 to 31.10.19, and India 1.11.19. He was awarded the General Service Medal, Clasp "Kurdistan". He was discharged from the ranks on the 8th of November 1937, when he was 'Promoted to Commissioned Rank, Lieutenant (QM), London Gazette 9.11.37'. Under the column headed 'Particulars of former service' it lists him as Scottish Rifles No. 43384. The last column, 'Remarks' gives an address of 24 New Street, Sion Mills, Co. ? (possibly Tyrone?).

This remarkable chap went on to serve in the Regiment until 1948, retiring with the rank of Major. He won the Military Cross in India, which was gazetted October 1942

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

I can't be sure, but I think the action for which he won his MC is mentioned in the Regimental History:

Volume III 1933 - 1946, page 88

"Just before first light on the 19th [April] the enemy attacked on three sides of the perimeter, but were held except on the South face, where some penetration was effected. This was driven off by the prompt action of Lieut. McGuiness, the Quartermaster of the Cameronians, who counter-attacked with the cooks and B echelon drivers."

Who would have thought a simple service number query would have led to a find like this? We could do an exhibition on this chap alone! Quite a career when you think about it; Private to Major in 35 years, with a Military Cross and two Military Medals thrown in for good measure!

[Armoured Farmer]

Barrie,

I'll get the MC citation for you on Wednesday also.

Farmer

[barrieduncan]

Thanks Farmer, that would be fantastic.

Here is a pic of the man himself, taken in Quetta, 1922 - it's a crop from a pretty large group pic of 'B' Coy. 2nd Battalion The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).

Not long after this pic was taken he won his bar to the MM.

Was just wondering about his medals, must be pretty rare (maybe unique) group?

Military Cross,

Military Medal and Bar

1914-15 Star

BWM

Victory Medal

GSM clasp Kurdistan

1939-45 Star

Burma Star

1939-45 War Medal

Defense Medal (possibly)

Territorial Efficiency Medal

Army LS & GC Medal

Barrie

[Graham Stewart]

Barrie,

Very interesting so it appears as though I was correct about his connection with the 5/6th Bn, Scottish Rifles, although there seems to be some confusion among my sources as to when the two battalions actually amalgamated. One source that the 5th Bn amalgamated with the 6th Bn on the 29th May 1916(James), and yet in the next paragraph it becomes the 29th February 1916?? While another source say's the amalgamation took place on the 1st June 1917(Fredericks).

I've looked at the Order of Battle and it appears that;-

August 1914 serving in Scottish Rifle Bde/Lowland Division. Left Division March 1915.

1/6th Bn, S.R. joins 23rd Bde/8th Div 24/3/1915.

Transfer to 154th Bde/51st Div 2/6/1915.

Posted to 51st Div Troops 12/1/1916 and trained as Pioneers.

Transferred to 33rd Div 21/2/1916.

Posted to 100th Bde/33rd Div 25/2/1916.

Posted to 19th Bde/33rd Div 29/5/1916 where it amalgamated with 5th Bn as 5/6th Bn, Scottish Rifles(T.F.).

The 5th Bn, S.R. had an equally travelled time;-

August 1914 serving Scottish Rifle Bde/Lowland Division. Left Division November 1914.

Transferred to 19th Bde/6th Div 19/11/1914.

Att'd 27th Div 31/5/1915.

Transferred with 19th Bde to 2nd Div 19/8/1915.

Transferred with Bde to 33rd Division 29/11/1915.

Amalgamated with 6th Bn, S.R. on posting of that battalion to 19th Bde/33rd Div 29/5/1916, as 5/6th Bn, Scottish Rifles(T.F.).

So as can be seen even official sources get it wrong. Anyway your man would have been awarded his T.E.M. on completion of 12years service, but I believe any embodied wartime service would count as double time towards the award. Obviously any claim would have to be verified and once he had decided to enlist as a regular then they would have to confirm whether or not he still qualified.

Graham.

[barrieduncan]

You were pretty much spot on Graham, well done

I'll double check just what the deal is with regards to the 5th and 6th battalions and just when exactly they did amalgamate.

It was really interesting looking through the enlistment books and seeing all the chaps with 60000 numbers who relisted on the same day as our man McGuiness.

I found an obituary for him just before I left this evening, I'll have a good read through it tomorrow and see if it adds anything to what we already know.

I'm still kind of confused about the T.E.M though. He presumably joined a territorial battalion in 1913 when he first enlisted, now if he served as a territorial until 1919 when he re-enlisted as a regular, that could well count as 12 years - why then did it take so long for him to be given the medal? And, if he was transferred into a service battlion (he won his MM with the 9th) would he still be classed as a territorial soldier?

It just seems a bit odd to me that a soldier could get both a T.E.M and a LS & GC medal for (pretty much) the same periods of service.

Thanks for your help on this one Graham,

Barrie

[Graham Stewart]

Barrie,

Have to agree with you that the award of a T.E.M. seems dubious having been transferred to a Service Battalion. This is because under T.F. Reg's a man couldn't be transferred (i)without his express permission and (ii)such a transfer would see him discharged from his T.F. Battalion. There is also the possibility of him being transferred back to T.F. service and any wartime transfers away from the T.F. being disregarded, due to circumstances beyond his control, which would see no break in service for the T.E.M.

His original 6th Bn number 6/1646 to my eyes, seems to be an earlier number, rather than one issued in 1913, although I'm not familiar with the Scottish Rifles. From what I gather, talking with other "number crunchers", is that the T.F. renumbered all of those wishing to stay and serve as such in 1908 and began at number 1. Depending on the number of men accepting T.F. service and the yearly intake of recruits, it's possible 1646 could have been issued between 1910/13, or have you a definate date for his enlistment?

Still all good stuff and I bet you're waiting to see what his Medal Roll Sheet says, better still start looking for his service records, which should have been carried over when he took up regular service.

Graham.