Cleaning WW1 bayonet and scabbard

[museumtom]

Yes the inspection marks have a crown over them and there are three. Regards.

Tom.

[Matthew]

This company sells an extensive range of leatherwork products including leather cleaning and preserving solutions which might be best for your scabbard.

http://www.leprevo.co.uk/aftercare.html

[Macthomas]

Thank you Matthew, thats is a useful link and the neatsfoot oil as recommended earier is much cheaper that I expected. I may order some from there if I cant get it at my local saddle shop.

Cheers,

Ian

[museumtom]

A caution with neatsfoot oil. If it is applied and the item left in an attic it attracts a type of mould. I usually add neatsfoot oil and after a few days seal it with the wifes moisturising cream. Moisturising cream on its own is really good also.

Use neatsfoot oil once a year only. Its made from hooves.

regards.

Tom.

[Macthomas]

Thanks Tom, I did not know that, I had never heard of neatsfoot oil before reading about it on here.

I dont have any intention of putting the bayonet in the attic as I am going to display it in my house. When I go to the saddle shop I will ask there advice for something more suitable and less likely to cause any kind of mould.

My wife will have plenty of moisturising cream as she suffers from exzema but I better watch that I dont put on one of her creams that have steroids in it or the scabbard might start to grow hair

Cheers

Ian

[Heatseeker]

This is all great information on this item and gives it more of a story to tell.

Welshdoc, I will try my best to get the correct rifle to fit it onto although it may take a while to get the spare cash and then of course I have to find one for sale. The hole appears to measure 1.7 cm so I assume this is the British version as it is closer to 1.8cm than 1.5cm.

Andrew Upton and Heatseeker The date is ' 16 so it could have been used in service. If the scabbard was made by Remington in the USA and the Bayonet was made by Sanderson in the UK is this normal for them to be together or is one of them a replacement for a lost / broken item? The clearance hole appears obvious now that I know what it is.

I think most of my questions have been answered apart from the letters on the lip of the scabbard, they look like HC but I suppose they could read HG, MC, MG, AC, AG, RC, RG or something similiar. Hopefully this will be the initials of the regiment that it was issued to. Anyone got any ideas?

Finally, when did the 1907 pattern Bayonet get withdrawn from service by the British Army?

Remington made Pattern 1913 bayonets under contract for the P14 and M17 rifles (on which the hole in the bayonet cross bar slid over the barrel, requiring the hole to be larger and further from the blade than the SMLE) and Pattern 1907 bayonets for the Commonwealth SMLE. The bayonets were very similar, and for this reason in World War II (the Home used both the P14 and the M17) the British decreed that two slots be carved in the grips of those bayonets for the American rifles.

Strictly speaking, that scabbard would gave started life with a Remington made bayonet, however, it is not "incorrect" as when items were retrieved from the battle field or refurbished at the factory a bayonet was a bayonet and, well, a scabbard was a scabbard.

On the side where the X bend test mark is stamped, you often encounter two digit dates, which indicate when the bayonet went through Factory Thorough Repair (FTR).

I have seen what would have been a 1909 Enfield hooked quillon bayonet with "15" (1915, probably when the quillon was lopped and a clearance hole drilled in the pommel), "23", "39" on the blade and Arabic writing on the pommel, indicating it served with the British from before the Great War and possibly in the second, and was then passed on as military aid to Egypt or Iraq, and then made its way on to the surplus market.

Such bayonets are fascinating, but the big trick with collecting is finding an intact original ... the best I have managed to date is a fine March 1914 Enfield Pattern 1907 bayonet which has no rebuild stamps and has no hole drilled in the pommel (that's it in the middle, with a refurbished 1915 manufacture with hole drilled in the pommel above, and a 1911 Enfield with the quillon roughly removed, but no hole in the pommel below).

[Heatseeker]

Here's my 1913 Enfield Pattern 1907 (not a Pattern 1913 - which came to me with very nice metal but had butchered grips and screws, which I replaced) ... it's interesting in that it has a solitary "15" rebuild stamp, which was when the quillon would have been neatly removed (as a November 1913 Pattern 07, it would have been one of the last hooked quillons, whereas the March 1914 bayonet in the previous photo would have been one of the first straight cross hilts) but somehow escaped later rebuilds when a hole would have been drilled in its pommel.

[Heatseeker]

You should also note that these bayonets started the war with deep glossy bluing and polished blades, but the gloss was taken from the bluing from about 1916 and the blades bead blasted to reduce reflection, then in about 1920, it was decreed that the blades should be polshed again!

Some units painted the metal green (as evidenced in the photo in the post two previous) and you see various forms of sharpening on some blades - some done by individuals and others at unit level.

[Heatseeker]

Here's the November 1913 Pattern 1907 bayonet stripped down (I am a diehard preservationist, but sometimes you just have to correct some civilian excesses) ... note the "15" on theblade, which indicates when it was last re-built. There is also a snap of the new grips I fitted (actually quite a bit of precise work ... note how the screws line up - which is how it should have left the factory):

[stevew]

Remington made Pattern 1913 bayonets under contract for the P14 and M17 rifles (on which the hole in the bayonet cross bar slid over the barrel, requiring the hole to be larger and further from the blade than the SMLE) and Pattern 1907 bayonets for the Commonwealth SMLE. The bayonets were very similar, and for this reason in World War II (the Home used both the P14 and the M17) the British decreed that two slots be carved in the grips of those bayonets for the American rifles.

This is a really interesting thread, I have just bought a bayonet, it's marked 1913, and Remington, and US. I was happy with all that before I bought it.

Just reading about the grooved slots, my bayonet has 2 grooved slots in the grip. Does this mean it won't fit a British SMLE??

[TonyE]

It surely does mean that!

Regards

TonyE

[Macthomas]

Heatseeker, you certainly seem to have some nice pieces of kit. I am new to collecting this type of militaria so my bayonet is my first weapon.

Is your rifle deactivated or is it live and either way is there any requirement to have a license to keep one?

I am under the impression that due to the age of these rifles it is ok to have them as live weapons without to much problems but I could be and probably am completely wrong.

I have used the Lee Enfield Mk 4 when I was younger, in the cadet force. I remember the DP rifles had horrible holes cut in the breech and the barrels filled with lead? to prevent live firing, is this the main way that they are de-activated or are there less destructive methods used.

I know I have gone away from my original question about the bayonet but I think it has been well answered.

Cheers,

Ian

[Teamski]

This IS a great thread. Very interesting info, thanks for sharing. So, why were holes drilled in the pommel? If I may ask, what does my bayonet say?? Thanks again for the great stuff guys!

-Ski

[Heatseeker]

This IS a great thread. Very interesting info, thanks for sharing. So, why were holes drilled in the pommel? If I may ask, what does my bayonet say?? Thanks again for the great stuff guys!

-Ski

What you have there is a quite rare unrefurbished Vickers Pattern 1907 bayonet ... only 10,000 were made in 1918, and they are instantly recognisable before you even draw the blade from the scabbard by their larger clearing hole.

Looking at the position of the handle screw and the lack of any upgrade marks on the blade, that bayonet looks to be in the configuration it left the factory in.

[Heatseeker]

Heatseeker, you certainly seem to have some nice pieces of kit. I am new to collecting this type of militaria so my bayonet is my first weapon.

Is your rifle deactivated or is it live and either way is there any requirement to have a license to keep one?

I am under the impression that due to the age of these rifles it is ok to have them as live weapons without to much problems but I could be and probably am completely wrong.

Cheers,

Ian

The rifle the bayonet is mounted on is a real treasure - a 1913 BSA No1 MkIII Sht LE (Short Lee Enfield, later the SMLE - Short Magazine Lee Enfield).

Remember what I said about intact bayonets being desirable? Well, it's the same with rifles, and this one is in the configuration it left the factory in - all matching numbered components, long range volley sights, magazine cutoff and even still sighted for the older MkVI "round nose" ammunition.

If it had stayed in British service, like the bayonets, it would have upgraded refurbished and modernised ... the problem I had was getting an intact early war bayonet to keep it company, and it turns out I managed to track down three (anything with marking post 1915 wouldn't do, as that was when the rifle was captured).

I first acquired the March 1914 bayonet, but I think the best match for wear is the November 1913 upgraded in 1915.

And to add the icing on the cake, I recently acquired the rifle from Turkish military stores, and the stock disc indicates it was issued to the 1/5th Gurkha Rifles in April 1914, and they LATER SERVED AT GALLIPOLI!

A lovely rifle, and the only one in my collection with an undisputedly verifiable history. And, yes, it remains intact, and I shoot it irregulalry just to clear out the cobwebs:

[Heatseeker]

Just another pic - the March 1914 Pattern 1907 bayonet mounted on the "Gurkha" rifle ... note the absence of any upgrade markings on the blade, the position of the screws (screws out of alignment is a sure sign the bayonet has been monkeyed with) and, of course, the absence of a clearing hole in the pommel, which was also a feature of the hooked quillon bayonets (beware any "hooky" with a hole in the pommel!).

[Teamski]

What you have there is a quite rare unrefurbished Vickers Pattern 1907 bayonet ... only 10,000 were made in 1918, and they are instantly recognisable before you even draw the blade from the scabbard by their larger clearing hole.

Looking at the position of the handle screw and the lack of any upgrade marks on the blade, that bayonet looks to be in the configuration it left the factory in.

Wow... Thanks! I'll have to thank my dad for that one. He has been a gun collector for over 30 years and used to have a table at all of the local shows. He picked up the bayonet and my 1915 SMLE back in 1983..... Again, thanks for the info!

-Ski

[Heatseeker]

Late in the piece and only a few hours to go, but I found this on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi...A%3AIT&rd=1

It's an intact March 1914 Pattern 07 without the hole in the pommel and what looks like the original scabbard, albeit with some apparent damage to the spine.

I won't be hopping on because I already have a lovely intact 1914 Enfield '07 and this one is in slightly lesser condition (there's some light pitting on the pommel), but it just goes to show there are still some intact Great War relics out there if you do a bit of digging.

[stevew]

I am now understanding my bayonet, it's a p13, I was hoping that once I could get hold of a smle I would already have the bayonet, but alas no. That'll teach me for not doing any research first. But at least a have a nice example of a p13, does anyone know where I can get a scabbard for it??

I have seen the mentioned p07 on ebay, may put a late bid in on it

[johnreed]

I bought a 07 bayonet on Ebay, the person who sold it did not tell me that somebody hads tried to put a shine on it by trying to remove the parkerising, its a bit of a mess. On doing a search on the web a found a company in the USA which manufactures a parkering fluid, I'm well pleased with the result of a SMLE magazine which I did, see photo. PM me if you want the details.

John

[Heatseeker]

I am now understanding my bayonet, it's a p13, I was hoping that once I could get hold of a smle I would already have the bayonet, but alas no. That'll teach me for not doing any research first. But at least a have a nice example of a p13, does anyone know where I can get a scabbard for it??

I have seen the mentioned p07 on ebay, may put a late bid in on it

Pattern 13 scabbards are identical - and interchangeable with the Pattern 1907.

That intact 1914 Patterm 1907 went for a good price - less than what you'd pay fore a "run of the mill" 1918 Pattern '07 refurbished a couple of times.

[Macthomas]

Pattern 13 scabbards are identical - and interchangeable with the Pattern 1907.

That intact 1914 Patterm 1907 went for a good price - less than what you'd pay fore a "run of the mill" 1918 Pattern '07 refurbished a couple of times.

Still a good bit more than what I paid for mine

[Heatseeker]

Still a good bit more than what I paid for mine

Ah, yes, there is a glut of Pattern 1907 bayonets on eBay at the moment and you can buy them for as little as US$30.

However, finding an intact pre or Great War example is difficult, and I am always prepared to bid a bit more.

You see plenty of 1909-1915 Pattern 07s from various makers, but in most cases there are re-build stamps to as late at the 1930s, so that makes them more a World War II relic. Likewise, I've seen plenty of the original 1907 dated BSA SMLE actions, but they've had their third barrel fitted, and are often re-clad in Australian or Indian furniture (timber).

That said, I landed my lovely March 1914 Enfield Pattern 07 for on 20 pounds on eBay ... I think the description said "old bayonet", which took a few buyers out of the fray.

[4thGordons]

Well - as a latecomer and for the sake of completeness;

Here is a P13 showing the grooved wood. (Note this example has no "oil/clearance hole" in pommel)

and a Remington M1917

Then, the only interesting P'07 I have - a "Wild Tiger Corps" (Siam) from the 20s

and some to watch out for - Indian pattern '07s from WWII - the first from a modified 07 the rest manufactured shorter (not pommel shape, unfullered blades etc) These typically sell for less than a standard 07 so if you think you are getting a bargain check!! Also shortened scabbards are harder to find

There is also the P03 which has a very similar pommel to the 07 but has a shorter double edged blade like the P1888

[findabetterole]

What you have there is a quite rare unrefurbished Vickers Pattern 1907 bayonet ... only 10,000 were made in 1918, and they are instantly recognisable before you even draw the blade from the scabbard by their larger clearing hole.

Hello Chaps,

I've just caught this thread and am a little pushed for time, but I'll put in a word here for the moment. HEATSEEKER.... your incorrect about the Vickers P1907. The first production run for Vickers was September of 1917, and their final production run and delivery was in January of 1919. For each month from Sept 1917 to Jan 1919 a certain amount of P1907's were produced and delivered by Vickers. However, the known and documented overall production from Vickers of the P1907 bayonet was 10,000 units... not soley for 1918 but total overall.

4thGordons.... did your 'Wild Tigers' P1907 come with an all metal scabbard? If not, it's only worth a fraction of the value it could be with the correct scabbard.

Seph