A list of British P.O.W's at Kut-El-Amarah

[steve fuller]

I would be interested to see if L/Cpl 9394 Heber WOODAGE of the Oxs & Bucks is on there please?

Cheers, Steve

[Andrew Hesketh]

Thanks for posting the Sherwoods.

[ddycher]

Would appreciate it if you could post the Devons names.

Thanks

Dave

[scapaton]

Hello Rich.

Could you please post the names of The West Yorks.

Thank you.

Regards.

Brian.

[Guest stims70]

Dear Rich,

Would it be possible to look for any POW from the 82nd Battery 10th Brigade RFA who were captured at kut.

thank you in advance.

[Icenitribe]

I have found a comprehensive list of British POWs, not any officers, taken prisoner by the Turks at the surrender of Kut in 1916. If you need a lookup just ask.

Rich

Do you have anything on George E. Spink. Died 29.4.16. His record says that he was P.O.W Turkey. Dead He was in the RFA Regimental No. 57057

[johntanner]

Would also be grateful for a copy of the Ox and Bucks list to see how well it tallies with the list in the 1st Bn history.

[Paul Gibson]

I would be very interested if any one could please point me in the direction of any lists of the captured troops from Kut El Amara.  Also was Pte A Harris 8385 RW Kents one of them. Thank you

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Paul Gibson said:

I would be very interested if any one could please point me in the direction of any lists of the captured troops from Kut El Amara.  Also was Pte A Harris 8385 RW Kents one of them. Thank you

According to the report received from the Turkish Red Crescent by the International Commitee of the Red Cross on the 15th March 1917, Arthur J. Harris was captured at the fall of Kut and was then being held at Afion-Kara-Hissar https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/3046226/708/50613/

Unfortunately seems to be the only report on which he was mentioned. Not readily coming across a repatriation report for him. I believe one of the forum members earlier in the thread said they were putting together a database on Royal West Kent soldiers.

Or perhaps forum member @charlie962 has come across him.

Cheers,
Peter

[Paul Gibson]

Many thanks for the information and the link Peter.

[charlie962]

10 hours ago, Paul Gibson said:

Also was Pte A Harris 8385 RW Kents one of them.

Peter has provided you with confirmation . I will see if I've a bit more.

6 hours ago, PRC said:

perhaps forum member @charlie962 has come across him.

Cheers,

Thanks for the heads-up. 

There were relatively few survivors, a high proportion being those lucky enough to have been taken as officers' servants before that long march into captivity. 

Charlie

[charlie962]

11 hours ago, Paul Gibson said:

Pte A Harris 8385 RW Kents

You may already have this but:

I believe he was 1904 RWK Militia (service paper survives, son of Margaret of Chatham Hill) who then joined the Regulars in 1906, being issued L/8385 at that point. He is, I believe, on the 1911 Census for 2RWK aged 27, born Chatham. 

He was either still serving or was mobilised Aug 1914 and went with the 2ndRWKs to Mespot, landing 6/2/15. Captured at the fall of Kut April 1916 he clearly survived because he subsequently joined the Royal Engineers on a 1 year engagement in June 1919. Issued RE number 609256.

This makes me wonder if his surviving service record is still held by MoD. They hold one for an A Harris, 1857634, born 20/4/1883. That number is in a block issued to the RE under the new seven digit Army number scheme. A near number 1857639 was a renumbering of a man previously RE 609284, increasing the probability that this is him. Certainly worth asking MoD.

I've still to check my Kut files. 

Charlie

[Paul Gibson]

Charlie many thanks for your research. I did find Arthur Harris in the 1911 census done by 2RWKs in India. You have answered the question also why he had a RE number.  Am I correct in assuming you are a wealth of information on Kut  ?

Once again thank you. Paul Gibson

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, Paul Gibson said:

assuming

I have tried to identify all those captured at Kut but there are large gaps in my knowledge. I tried to focus on arms other than infantry because I assumed there were regimental experts already! But in searching for one man one finds mention of another so I have a variety of notes. The hard drive got corrupted so I'm reconstructing slowly.

If you have any info on other men captured at Kut I should be interested to hear.

Charlie

PS. Still to come back on poss RWKs....

[Paul Gibson]

Charlie

My interest in this theatre of the war started a few years ago when I purchased a 1914-18 War medal to a Lieut B M Blakeston of the 1/1st Gurkhas. His father had been the vicar at a local church and he is remembered on a plaque in the church having died on the 25 March 1917 in Mesopotamia.  I started to read up about this theatre of war and obviously came across Kut-el -Amarah and never having heard of it and the huge disaster there have tried to collect medals from people who served there. They don't come up very often and obviously are sort after so the bidding gets quite competitive.   

I have so far collected, from the QRKents;  Pte Harris 8385  Pte C Harrison 8298 both surviving POWs

from the RFA P Clayton 73593 who died in captivity 26.5. 1916

I also have the dead mans penny for Ephraim Shortman 9731 Oxford and Bucks died 3 March 1916 captured at Kut, Also a clipping from the local paper naming a further 60 men from the same regiment captured there. 

The medals of Pte Arthur Patrick Norfolk Reg 7660 DOWs Kut 8.1.1916

Three Sepoys of the 1-66 and 1-76 Punjabs.

Regards Paul Gibson

 

[charlie962]

Paul, I understand the interest. My research started because I found I'd acquired, a long time ago, a medal to a Kut survivor. Digitising of archives has enabled me to find a number of stories he told of his time in captivity.

For Harris and Harrison, I've nothing obvious extra. They both appear in the in the 1916 Casualty Lists as PoWs, both in the regimental magazine repeating the same and that they are at Afion Kara Hissar. No other mention that I've noted.

Harrison has a surviving partial service record which incidentally shows 1906 attestation (like Harris) on 9 years Colour/ 3 years Réserve. So both men would have been serving still with the regiment at the outbreak of war rather than mobilised from reserve. 

Harrison also has a Hospital Admissions record on FindmyPast that tells us he was on HMHS Assaye for a voyage Tripoli(Italy) to Alexandria 28-30 Nov 1918. So one of the first evacuations after the Turkish surrender? 

Charlie

[Paul Gibson]

Thanks again Charlie for the information. I will no doubt be in touch again .

Regards Paul Gibson

[charlie962]

19 hours ago, Paul Gibson said:

from the RFA P Clayton 73593 who died in captivity 26.5. 1916

CWGC have him as 31/7/16 which will be an end date of a presumed death in the month of July.

I see also he was one of those reburied from Adana in Asia Minor.

Soldiers Effects have two records, the first stating death between 1-31/7/16 but the second saying 18/10/16! 

Where does your date come from? 

Charlie 

Edit. I suspect you've picked up that date on the MIC which is actually date notified as a PoW rather than date of death?

Edited 1 August , 2023 by charlie962

[Paul Gibson]

You are quite correct Charlie I mistook the date on his medal roll of capture for his date of death.  

I do have in my possession a publication by Messrs. Cox & Co's which lists British Officers taken prisoner in various theatres of war 1914 -1918. It lists extensively the officers captured at Kut.

Once again thank you for your help and knowledge. 

Paul

 

 

[charlie962]

Kent Messenger 3/5/193/ courtesy Findmypast newspapers shows how rare medals are to survivors of the RWK.

[Paul Gibson]

Very interesting.  Thanks once again. 

Paul

[PRC]

Paul,

Don't know if this adds anything but a (partial) list appeared on page 4 of the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, June 27/1916, of 490 names believed taken prisoner at the fall of Kut. It includes roughly about the right number of Royal West Kents judging from that 1930's newspaper article. Note however there is also a few men of the Devonshire Regiment shown separately as attached Royal West Kents, and this muddies the water a bit.

The 1/4th, 1/5th, 1/6th, 2/4th and 2/6th Battalions of the Devonshire Regiment all sailed out to India in 1914 to take up garrison postings, freeing up Regular Army Battalions to return to the UK . There were a number of other Territorial Force Battalions carrying out the same role. During the course of campaigning in Mesopotamia in 1915, volunteers were sought from these garrison units to make good the losses. Being Territorial Force and serving with Regular Army units, the volunteers are shown as attached. There is no clear picture as to whether they were just mixed in or whether they stayed a coherent group at the Company \ Half-Company level. Sloppy record keeping can then see individuals recorded as serving with the unit they are attached to without mentioning the parent unit but then quoting the service number of the unit they had been "borrowed" from.

Where it causes a problem is reconciling the numbers - did the 226 of the 2nd Battalion Royal West Kents taken prisoner at Kut include the Devonshires attached to them? In terms of the daily reporting of the strength of the Battalion I suspect there would be just the one number recorded. Does the number that survived similarly include \ exclude the Devons? We will probably never know for sure. I know from looking at the Norfolks that these lists can also show, for example, men of the unit who were attached to signals, brigade and the royal flying corps.

Between the 1st November 1915 and the 30th April 1916 there are 9 individuals recorded as serving with the Devonshire Regiment and who are buried in Kut War Cemetery. These include:-

Sergeant 3118 Charles Alfred Pryor, 2/6th Battalion Devonshire Regiment, who was attached to the 2nd Battalion Royal West Kents when he died on the 22nd December 1915.
Private 3175 James Brim, 2/6th Battalion Devonshire Regiment, who was attached to the 2nd Battalion Royal West Kents when he died on the 25th April 1916.

Medal Index Cards shows both landing in Mesopotamia on the 26th August 1915.

The others were either attached to the 2nd Battalion Dorsetshire Regiment or no details are shown.

I've split the column into three to try and make it easier to read. All images courtesy The Times Digitial Archive.

Cheers,
Peter

[Paul Gibson]

Fantastic work Charlie. I can see why you are a General on this site !!

Many thanks again. Paul

[Paul Gibson]

The Gentleman below is the Grandfather of a friend of mine. Captain Stoddard of the 104th Wellesleys later to be Lt Col of the regiment. He was wounded twice in the campaign against the Turks around Kut. He avoided capture because after being wounded the second time he  was detached to road making down the river, 

[charlie962]

7 hours ago, PRC said:

appeared on page 4 of the edition of The Times dated Tuesday, June 27/1916, of 490 names believed taken prisoner at the fall of Kut. It includes roughly about the right number of Royal West Kents judging from that 1930's newspaper article. Note however there is also a few men of the Devonshire Regiment shown separately as attached Royal West Kents, and this muddies the water a bit.

Peter, that RWK list is fairly complete but there were a few subsequent additions and a few deletions. 

I have a list compiled from the Times giving 255 RWK names plus 42 Devons attached RWK.  

So clearly the newspaper article overlooked the 'attached' men which sadly seems to have occured with some other regiments as well, to varying degrees. 

Another reason for the discrepancy could be the treatment of those men exchanged at the time of the surrender and those men exchanged at Baghdad a couple of months later. I ran a  thread on this subject.

I'm happy to check names against this list if anyone needs. 

Charlie