Attack on a poppy seller

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Whilst I am against compulsory military service, I am not against other forms of national service, such as working in the community and what the Japanese call 'citizenship programmes'. These would certainly be better than sending juvenile offenders to prison.

[ianw]

A Thames Valley Police Spokeman said :-

"The man was attacked 3 times with a claw hammer and was taken to Stoke Mandeville Hospital with head injuries".

The injured man in question is 79. A 29 year old man has been released on police bail.

For those folk who have taken the trouble to explain how the bail system "works" , thanks , but I can't help but feel that it plainly didn't in this case. Could anyone who committed this attack reasonably expect to be immediately given their liberty without a fairly exhaustive psychiatric examination ? This young man must by definition require some sort of treatment.

He could well be in your local B&Q right now selecting another Spear & Jackson hammer to replace the one that I hope was not given back to him with his other property on release.

I note that South Manchester British Legion will now only allow it's collectors to operate inside supermarkets and banks with security guards present. Have they been scared into over reaction by screaming, hysterical "Sun" headlines or are they just taking reasonable steps to protect their collectors ? With the Buckinghamshire Basher on the loose, I think it's the latter.

[John_Hartley]

I note that South Manchester British Legion will now only allow it's collectors to operate inside supermarkets

The seller is indeed inside my South Manchester Sainsbury's but actually always is. Nothing to stop someone intent on bashing them with a hammer though.

Just by way of reflection (before I go really off-topic again), Manchester Evening News reports that a man sentenced for an assault and robbery of an elderly woman has been sentenced to 15 years. Not a first-time offender, of course. All things taking their normal course, he'll serve 7.5 years and be "on licence" for another 3 (subject to supervision by the probation service and potential recall to prison).

[Max]

but I can't help but feel that it plainly didn't in this case.  Could anyone who committed this attack reasonably expect to be immediately given their liberty without a fairly exhaustive psychiatric examination ?  This young man must by definition require some sort of treatment.

I really do hate to labour the point but you are still making an enormous assumption of guilt by assuming that the man who has been arrested and released is the man who carried out the attack?!?!?

[ianw]

No I am not presuming guilt but , based on the statement made by the Police spokesman , I find it highly unlikely that the individual released on bail (whether mentally ill or not) did not carry out the attack. I find it rather perverse of you to cling to the very weak argument that extremely violent individuals should be automatically allowed to retain their full liberty simply because they have not been convicted in court. In fact , I would contend that until the police inquiries clearly showed that he was not the attacker , he should have be held in custody, in which case he would not have been released on bail but eventually released unconditionally. Would you argue that Peter Sutcliffe , another virtuoso of the hammer should have been left at liberty prior to trial.

Surely it was only a matter of luck that an elderly man "attacked 3 times with a claw hammer" and in receipt of "head injuries" (Police spokesman) was not killed. Therefore, an eventual charge of attempted murder might reasonably be contemplated.

As regards John's report of a 15 year sentence for a repeat offender guilty of a serious assault on an elderly woman, given the automatic reduction of the sentence for good behaviour, I would say that it is probably just about adequate.

I seem to be turning into a Michael Howard clone in my dotage. How strange !

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

but I can't help but feel that it plainly didn't in this case.  Could anyone who committed this attack reasonably expect to be immediately given their liberty without a fairly exhaustive psychiatric examination ?  This young man must by definition require some sort of treatment.

I really do hate to labour the point but you are still making an enormous assumption of guilt by assuming that the man who has been arrested and released is the man who carried out the attack?!?!?

If the poppy collector attacked had been my grandfather, I would want the suspect released on police bail.........if you know what I mean

Max - I hope you would stand by what you say if the poppy collector had been a member of your family.

[Kate Wills]

I was in Aylesbury earlier today (from where Martin has just returned from a short stay in Stoke Mandeville), and took the opportunity to ask after the injured Eric from some of his colleagues, who were manning an RBL stall on the Market Square. They told me he was "going on OK", and I asked them to convey to him the best wishes of the Pals on the Great War Forum.

[Max]

Max - I hope you would stand by what you say if the poppy collector had been a member of your family.

As a matter of fact my Grandfather fought both in the Spanish Civil War and WW2 precisely to protect the rule of law and the principle of innocence unless proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I find it particularly patronizing to hear the"if it was a member of your family" argument, Justice should be blind regardless of victim or accused.

About twenty years ago I was arrested and spent two years of absolute hell trying to prove my innocence of a crime that I did not commit despite the fact that the law states that it is the Crown that has to prove my guilt. The crime carried a VERY long mandatory sentence. It was only because my father was able to hire a VERY expensive lawyer who tore apart the police "case" in court that I was able to walk free, according to the Judge, without a stain on my character. That incident has soured my life to this point. According to you because I had been arrested I was in effect guilty. Lets just dispence with due process and cut straight to the hanging. Lets hope that you are not mis-identified and go through the hell that I did, or maybe you should and you may then have a different outlook on life and liberty.

I was under the impression that it was the Nazis and Facists who dragged people away into the night without trial and on the presumption of guilt not the great British public.

Sorry to rant but I do feel very strongly about this subject.

Andy

[BeppoSapone]

I was under the impression that it was the Nazis and Facists who dragged people away into the night without trial and on the presumption of guilt not the great British public.

Sorry to rant but I do feel very strongly about this subject.

Andy

Max/

If only that were true!

The British did exactly that in 1940 and termed it "internment". Those who survived were up to five years in concentration camps, and hundreds didn't survive!

Imagine that, five years in a camp for doing nothing wrong, and no come back. You could even be an ex-serviceman, or have sons in the forces, and it made no difference. See my post elsewhere in this group about the youngest VC of WW2, Dennis Donnini.

These people, with their lives wrecked were never compensated. In fact, they never even got so much as an apology. Those who were killed are "non persons" not even on the CWGC Register despite the fact that some were British, both British born and naturalised.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. And as for "British Justice" it's a sick joke. If your family kick up enough trouble you might get a "Royal Pardon" 30 or 40 years after they hung you!

Also, sorry to rant but I feel as strongly as you on this subject.

[ianw]

Max,

I certainly sympathize greatly with you and your negative experience of the British justice system. There are far too many miscarriages and the judiciary often drags its feet when it comes to quashing sentences. In my opinion the other end of the spectrum of justice failings are patently inadequately long sentences and the lurch towards marginalising the victims of crime and characterising criminals too glibly as "victims" of Society's injustices.

I do not agree with vigilante action (although it sometimes is tempting to do so) but the justice system must deliver sentencing more in accordance with the values of the average man in the street .

[Max]

In my opinion the other end of the spectrum of justice failings are patently inadequately long sentences and the lurch towards marginalising the victims of crime and characterising criminals too glibly as "victims" of Society's injustices.

We certainly agree on this point

[Tim Birch]

In cases involving violence, and where there are reasonable grounds to believe that the suspect is a danger to the public, it is imperitive that they should be detained pending the due course of the law.

It is the method of detention which is in my opinion wrong. The suspect remains innocent until proven guilty. To detain him/her in police cells or the sort of remand centre which we currently have is a crime against their human rights. Yes, they have to be detained, but they should be allowed considerably more dignity and comfort than is currently shown.

They should be dtained in as comfortable conditions as possible and have every right of a normal citizen other than their freedom. Until they have been proven guilty their detention should not in any way resemble punishment.

If convicted .... well that's a different matter.

Tim

[Kate Wills]

OK Pals. Everyone who wants has already had a chance to add their thoughts about the judicial system, which is a very emotive subject and bound to raise strong feelings and open old wounds. I share these feelings and wounds myself.

However, perhaps it is time to draw a line and get back to remembering Eric, who, for whatever reason, was doing his bit for a cause which is dear to all our hearts, and found himself in hospital.

We live in a society where we DO have freedom of thought and expression. Many years ago Eric and countless others did their bit to ensure we could continue to enjoy this right.

I repeat - OUR GOOD WISHES ERIC

for now and for Remeberance Days to come.

[Simon Furnell]

I thought i would just say,that i spotted on the Heart,Bucks and Beds,BBC website,that Mr Pasternoster was able to take part in the Rememberance day service,despite 7 stiches in his hand,and having his head glued together.

A very brave man indeed.

His attacker was 29 and is still in custody,so i think i read.

Who knows what goes through some peoples heads.

Perhaps we will find out what was going through this young mans head after the court case.

Whatever it was,it was in-excusable.

Regards.

Simon.