Matt Dixon Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I am sure that all the pals will be saddened to know of the horrendous attack on a 79 year old poppy seller, WW2 veteran Eric Paternoster. It appears that Eric was doing his duty outside a supermarket, when, in an unprovoked attack, a thug attacked him with a hammer. Eric, suffered head and hand injuries (in trying to defend himself) but thankfully will make a full recovery. The dispicable individual who carried out this attack has been arrested. Eric has said that he will be back out selling poppies again as soon as he is well enough. I wish Eric all the best for a full and speedy recovery, and I lament this dispicable and disgraceful act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I would like to echo your thoughts, and wish Eric well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleur Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 NO WAY!!! Jeeze, that is just awful - poor old boy! I can't believe the way this country is going to the dogs. Grrrr - makes me SO cross. Fleur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annette Burgoyne Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I also wish Eric all the best and his attacker all the worst, this Country is going down the pan as my Granddad used to say. Annette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Awful. I bet the toe rag who did it was a poor misunderstood kid who just needs some guidance and encouragment. It would be inadvisable to punish him, as he might get the wrong message. Thank goodness we no longer have the birch or stocks. Just imagine what a terrifying society we would live in if we brought back corporal punishment? We can't have elderly people including poppy sellers feeling safe in our namby pamby society can we? I wish Eric all the best and admire his courage in intending to return to his very worthwhile voluntary job. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I just want to wish Eric well. I hope he's up and about soon. Words can't explain how I feel about the perpetrator of this crime. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I bet the toe rag who did it was a poor misunderstood kid who just needs some guidance and encouragment. It would be inadvisable to punish him, as he might get the wrong message. Thank goodness we no longer have the birch or stocks. Just imagine what a terrifying society we would live in if we brought back corporal punishment? Nothing like waiting for due process Best wishes Eric hope you are up and about soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Sometimes, just sometimes I really wish we branded muggers and other such scum on the forehead. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I’ve tried hard to think of how to describe my feelings about this but for once words fail me. Good luck Eric and best wishes for a speedy recovery. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Without wishing to detract from what is clearly a nasty, vicious assault, may I offer a touch of wishy-washy liberalism here. I presume the fact that Mr Paternoster was selling poppies is not relevent to the incident (or is it?). Was the motive robbery? If so, then the offender is almost certain to receive a significant custodial sentence. The government and the courts have, for some time, been cracking down on "street crime" and there has been some success in reducing the incidence. Alternatively, was this just an unprovoked assault on a defenceless old man committed for gratification. If, so, the offender is almost certain to receive a significant custodial sentence. The facts of violent crime are that population group most likely to be the victims of violent assault are actually young men. However, that doesnt sell newspapers, does it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Best wishes to the unfortunate Eric. As someone who used to practice in the criminal courts, at the risk of being labeled a wishy-washy liberal, can I echo what John Hartley said. This person, if caught, will go to prison. Furthermore, those at risk of crimes of violence are predominately young men, and the rest of us have an exaggerated fear of the risk of crimes of violence in this country because of our repulsive Murdoch dominated press, which whips up hysteria on the subject of crime because it sells newspapers. And before anyone says it, I have twice been the victim of a crime of violence myself, so I do not lack sympathy for the victims. Sympathy for the victims and the desire for a fair and productive criminal Justice system based on true evidence are two different sides of the same coin. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevew Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I saw this on my local news yesterday. Amazingly the attacker who was arrested, has been released on police bail. The unprovoked attack sickens me, the fact that the scum bag who did the attack has been released annoys me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Was the motive robbery? If so, then the offender is almost certain to receive a significant custodial sentence. What do you call significant John - 3, 4 or 5 years? Let's see remission of 50% for being a good boy, plus his time off for being on remand perhaps - this filth could be on the streets in 18 months I do hope he goes to prison. Cons have a way of educating themselves - slipping on soap in the shower, accidently having a jug of boiling hot water tipped up on your head - lets hope this vermin ends up sharing a cell with a 20st, 6' 8'' tall glaswegian who calls himself Sandra! He won't be so full of it then!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 I heard about this attack in Aylesbury on the local news yesterday but, sadly, I wasn't suprised. When Jean came over I told her, she replied that she was suprised that it hadn't happened sooner. I suppose the poor mis-guide youth will be given a free day out to Alton Towers. All the best to Eric and his kind, the backbone of this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Locking up in stocks, birching, branding, scalding? Sounds like a sure-fire recipe for civilisation. That will give these people something to live up to! Could we not just wait for due process as Max suggests and in the meantime at least entertain the possibility that the assailant in such a pointless hopeless attack is deranged? By the way, he is not a youth. According to reports, the attacker is 29. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 What do you call significant John - 3, 4 or 5 years? Assuming first it's a first offence, that's round about the sentence for this sort of thing, and, having also worked in the criminal justice system for over 20 years, I do think that's significant and proportionate. Assuming someone gets 4 years, they would serve two and then be "on licence" for a third year where they are under the supervision of the Probation Service and subject to recall to prison to serve the remainder of their sentence. Recall is fairly common (usually not for committing another offence but for "lifestyle" matters - like failing to report to the probation officer, moving house without permission or taking up drug usage again). The real problem here isnt about banging some up (that's easy), it's what do you do with them when they come out (as almost everyone does at some point). get that right and you effectively reduce crime and protect the public. Apologies to all - got well off topic. Sometimes forget I've retired and don't have to defend the criminal justice system against cheap attacks from the tabloids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Were the seller a Big Issue vendor, s/he would regularly be subjected to verbal abuse, insults, aggression, robbery, intimidation or physical attacks, often from what we might assume to be normally inoffensive members of the public. Both sorts of vendor are vulnerable, unprotected people carrying out legitimate, legal activities, but one story is considered newsworthy and the other is not, unless a sympathetic local editor decides to run with it. Attacks on other human beings cannot be justified, but nor can ignoring the dangers to one kind of person because of assumptions made about his or her social or moral standing. Both people are likely to suffer trauma as well as physical impairment or loss of self-esteem and confidence. It seems to me that as outrage is clearly justified in the case of the poppy seller, then people who are less socially acceptable deserve respect, kindness, support and sympathy from the public too. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 As a serving soldier I have nothing but respect for military veterans the world over. I was digusted to a point that I almost punched the computer when I read about this attack on the BBC Website. Unfortunatley in our society today we have people with no respect for those who came before them. When I was stationed in the Falkland Islands in 1998 I arrested a Corporal who had been caught defecating on the floor of the garrison church on the night before rememberance day. The NCO in question was investigated, tried and convicted for Criminal Damage by Courts Martial. He went to MCTC Colchester for 6 months, was reduced in the ranks and then kicked out of the army. That crime really sickened me. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttd0 Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Time to bring back national service? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Time to bring back national service? Why? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Both sorts of vendor are vulnerable, unprotected people carrying out legitimate, legal activities, but one story is considered newsworthy and the other is not.... Nope. There are more horrific details of other crimes on the editors' desks than we care to think about. The beating of the Poppy Seller just happens to be topical. I reckon more bus drivers get abused than Big Issue sellers - but your eye will probably just scan the details of 'Driver B was assaulted at 11.37 on the number 98 bus' because the 'average' reader has seen/heard it before. Sad, but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Both sorts of vendor are vulnerable, unprotected people carrying out legitimate, legal activities, but one story is considered newsworthy and the other is not.... Nope. There are more horrific details of other crimes on the editors' desks than we care to think about. The beating of the Poppy Seller just happens to be topical. Gwyn is right. 'Crime' and 'punishment' is socially determined. Big Issue sellers attract little sympathy; poppy sellers attract rather more. That's what makes the 'crime' and stokes the moral panic and outrage. Similarly 'crime' and 'punishment' depends on the perpetrator. If our poppy seller had been attacked by a group of drunken Oxbridge students it would all be dismissed as high jinks. But if he is an unemployed Irish labourer then he can expect the book to be thrown at him. We have this discussion occasionally on the SAD threads. Why was it that only the ORs were given an early moring appointment with 12 rifles and a brick wall, whilst the officers were shipped off to Craiglockhart? What makes the same offence a 'crime' for an OR but an 'illness' for an officer? Answer: the social background of the offender and the judges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Locking up in stocks, birching, branding, scalding? Sounds like a sure-fire recipe for civilisation. No these things are not civilised - neither is attacking a 79 year old man with a hammer! As I said if the 'system' hasn't got the guts to deal with these people in the only way they understand there are always others who will do it - I have seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 Gwyn is right. 'Crime' and 'punishment' is socially determined. Big Issue sellers attract little sympathy; poppy sellers attract rather more. That's what makes the 'crime' and stokes the moral panic and outrage. I'm still not convinced. I believe that, in the case of the media, it's sensationalism - AND it has to be topical. Some magician is holed up in a box for weeks, and half of London turns out to see him. A guy who climbs up a crane, near Tower Bridge, protesting against the rights of estranged Fathers (for the sixth time), gets almost nil publicity - even though he dressed up as Spiderman, and blocked the weekend capital traffic. If Spiderman was a former soldier, and climbed up the Cenotaph on a certain day, more press coverage I'm sure..... It is also my belief that, in many cases, the legal system is 'pressured' into making decisions, based on the views of the 'popular' media. If the readers of the Times wanted to bring back hanging, there's a chance that a few MPs might make a few noises. But if the Sun readers came out in force, the PM would make a statement. That's what I call 'socially determined.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 As I said if the 'system' hasn't got the guts to deal with these people in the only way they understand there are always others who will do it - I have seen it happen. But surely it is the fault of 'the system' that it creates people with such a mindset? To tell people that "there is no such thing as society" and to trample on others. To "get your snout in the trough", at the same time as destroying jobs, education and the NHS will not add to social cohesion. Why do our war wounded and elderly ex-soldiers have to be funded by charity in the first place? I have nothing against the British Legion, and fully support the sale of poppies BUT I am wondering why? I would like to see ex-servicemen taken proper care of by the government and the financing of war the result of the sale of a few paper flowers. Would YOU give a pound for napalm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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