Help needed in deciphering medal card contents please.

[cumbrianangel]

Hi, firstly I am hope that the medal card that I have attached to this actually IS attached - I've followed the instructions kindly given to someone else today so I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

I only obtain this medal card today and I am afraid that it means very little to me as I can't work out what any of the writing means apart from the fact that I know it is the right person because of the date of death matching the one on his grave.

Alexander Robson was my 3rd cousin, I know that he was definately awarded a DCM but I can't see and mention of that on the card. Also as he died in 1917 (not killed in action, but from his wounds it now seems), why does his card give the date 16.3.22 in one section?

On the print out from the CWWG's he was aged 36, was a Second Lieutenant and is buried in Beersheba was cemetery.

I have searched the Lodnon Gazette to no avail but I'm told that it isn't easy to search their site so maybe I am doing something wrong. I have the same problem with his son, who was killed in 1944 in Italy and is buried at Minturno. I also know that he was warded the MC but can't find any mention in the London Gazette.

Any hel would be most appreciated as I have no idea where to go next.

Thanks,

Shirley

[barrieduncan]

Hi Shirly,

To make sure the image attaches you have to ensure it is less than 100kb. When writing the post, make sure you click 'Add into Post' - after you have opened the file you want to attach - its easy to forget that bit.

Barrie

[barrieduncan]

Name: ROBSON, CHARLES ALEXANDER BURLEIGH

Initials: C A B

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Fusiliers

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 36

Date of Death: 08/11/1917

Awards: DCM

Additional information: Son of Charles Burleigh Robson, of Newcastle; husband of Alice Helena Robson, of Malvern, College Town, Camberley, Surrey.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: O. 43.

Cemetery: BEERSHEBA WAR CEMETERY

I'm guessing this is the chap? Hopefully someone will be able to help you find his DCM citation in the Gazette, it is a bit of a git to search.

Barrie

[barrieduncan]

Is it possible that Alexander Robson won his DCM in the Boer War? I can find no mention of him at all on the gazette, not even promotions.

Hopefully this will bump this up and grab the attention of the Gazette experts

[Andy Shaw]

This is your man.

9776 Sgt (Acting Company Sgt Major) Alexander Robson, 2nd Bn R Ir Fus.

DCM - London Gazette 3rd June 1915

For Conspicuous Gallantry at St Eloi on 14th March 1915

''When almost encircled by the enemy, he held the trench against superior numbers with marked ability and by his determination and example greatly contributed to the complete success which was eventually attained''

He has two medal index cards one of which shows his promotion from Sergeant to Acting Warrant Officer Class 2 and finally Second Lieutenant.

He is mentioned in the battalion diary as dying of wounds, He is probably mentioned earlier on, when I get a chance I will scan the previous months (might take some time as it is all handwritten) it should mention his date of promotion and some more information about the action around St Eloi.

This action was depicted by the war artist Charles J Payne and appeared in the Graphic on June 12th 1915

Hope this helps

Regards

Andy

[cumbrianangel]

Name: ROBSON, CHARLES ALEXANDER BURLEIGH

Initials: C A B

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Second Lieutenant

Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Fusiliers

Unit Text: 2nd Bn.

Age: 36

Date of Death: 08/11/1917

Awards: DCM

Additional information: Son of Charles Burleigh Robson, of Newcastle; husband of Alice Helena Robson, of Malvern, College Town, Camberley, Surrey.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: O. 43.

Cemetery: BEERSHEBA WAR CEMETERY

I'm guessing this is the chap? Hopefully someone will be able to help you find his DCM citation in the Gazette, it is a bit of a git to search.

Barrie

[cumbrianangel]

Hi Barrie, thank you so much, yes it is him of course!

I only found out the details of his medal card 2 days ago and was recommended to post a question on here, so I joined the board and everyone has been so helpful - thank you to everyone that has helped a woman that knows nothing about such things but is now "hooked" on finding out more!

best wishes and thanks again,

Shirley

[cumbrianangel]

This is your man.

9776 Sgt (Acting Company Sgt Major) Alexander Robson, 2nd Bn R Ir Fus.

DCM - London Gazette 3rd June 1915

For Conspicuous Gallantry at St Eloi on 14th March 1915

''When almost encircled by the enemy, he held the trench against superior numbers with marked ability and by his determination and example greatly contributed to the complete success which was eventually attained''

He has two medal index cards one of which shows his promotion from Sergeant to Acting Warrant Officer Class 2 and finally Second Lieutenant.

He is mentioned in the battalion diary as dying of wounds, He is probably mentioned earlier on, when I get a chance I will scan the previous months (might take some time as it is all handwritten) it should mention his date of promotion and some more information about the action around St Eloi.

This action was depicted by the war artist Charles J Payne and appeared in the Graphic on June 12th 1915

Hope this helps

Regards

Andy

[cumbrianangel]

Hi Andy,

I only logged on a few minutes ago and went straight to this message board, I still can't believe that you have found out so much for me - thank you so very much. I'm sure I would never have found out myself. Reading the details bought a lump to my thoat - he must have been a very brave man. Although only my 3rd cousin, it has, over the past few months, become almost an obsession to find out more about him.

I am slightly confused as to where, and how, you have obtained so much information. Could you enlighten me a little please? How did you find that he has 2 medal cards - I understand that is very unusual? I only got one that is stamped "1914-15" on the top left so I wondered if there would be another one.

I feel so stupid not knowing what the words and numbers mean on the medal card that I have in front of me - I don't even know what "15 star" means!

I still wonder where I have gone wrong with searching The London Gazette - I will give it a try again as I desperately want to know why his son, who was killed in 1944, was awarded an MC. I couldn't find any mention of him either.

ANY further information would be very gratefully received, thank you SO much :-)

all best wishes,

Shirley

[SteveE]

Shirley

I don't think WW2 MC awards had citations printed in the London Gazette, however his award was listed in the London Gazette #36436, dated 23rd March 1944.

Lieutenant (temporary Captain) Charles Alexander Robson (126448),

The Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) (Finchampton, Berks).

A link to the Gazette is Here

Hope this helps.

Steve

[SteveE]

Shirley

Whilst I'm at it, this may be of use to you, Charles Alexander Robson's commission.

London Gazette #34821, dated 2nd April 1940.

The undermentioned Cadets, from Sandhurst and 163rd Officer Cadet Training Units, to be 2nd Lts.

23rd Mar. 1940:—

R. Berks. R.

Charles Alexander ROBSON (126448).

Anthony RAMPTON (126449).

Hugh Hilary Veraon SPREADBURY (126450).

Michael Henry SEYMOUR (126451).

Link to the Gazette is Here

Hope this helps.

Steve

[Andy Shaw]

Shirley,

Welcome to the Forum,

I have lots of information on the Irish Fusiliers as I collect medals to that Regiment, this information includes Battalion diaries and Medal rolls along with citations for the DCM.

If you do an on line search of the mics you will see two cards for Alexander, the first one shows his rank as Sgt the second one his rank from Sgt to 2/Lt, it’s not so unusual to have more than one medal index card. These show the medals that the men were awarded which along with his 1914/15 Star would include a British War and Victory medal plus of course his DCM.

Robson mic

If you click on the 'see details' next to each entry once you have opened the above link they will show you these details. You can download these mics and the NA site also gives descriptions of the medals awarded.

As regards the London Gazette, this can be hit and miss when searching, but I have found the entry for Alexander.

Robson_DCM.pdf

[cumbrianangel]

Shirley,

Welcome to the Forum,

I have lots of information on the Irish Fusiliers as I collect medals to that Regiment, this information includes Battalion diaries and Medal rolls along with citations for the DCM.

If you do an on line search of the mics you will see two cards for Alexander, the first one shows his rank as Sgt the second one his rank from Sgt to 2/Lt, it’s not so unusual to have more than one medal index card. These show the medals that the men were awarded which along with his 1914/15 Star would include a British War and Victory medal plus of course his DCM.

Robson mic

If you click on the 'see details' next to each entry once you have opened the above link they will show you these details. You can download these mics and the NA site also gives descriptions of the medals awarded.

As regards the London Gazette, this can be hit and miss when searching, but I have found the entry for Alexander.

[cumbrianangel]

Hi again Andy,

I am becoming overwhelmed by all the wonderful information that I have gained in so little time - I have downloaded the 2nd (or should I say 1st as it was the 1st of the 2) MIC's. The 2nd one is far more interesting and I still long to decipher more of what's on it. Can I ask just one more thing, does it mention his DCM on the card?

At least I now appreciate what the "15 star" means - thank you!

I said a very strange thing to my partner when I read why he had been awarded the DCM - "do you think he was very brave?" His reply was "what do you think?!"

I would love any more information about The Royal Irish Fusiliers - is there a reason why he would have served with them? Oh, and can you tell me anything about St. Eloi?

Bed is calling now, burning the midnight oil already :-)

Thanks so much once again

Best wishes,

Shirley

Shirley

Whilst I'm at it, this may be of use to you, Charles Alexander Robson's commission.

London Gazette #34821, dated 2nd April 1940.

The undermentioned Cadets, from Sandhurst and 163rd Officer Cadet Training Units, to be 2nd Lts.

23rd Mar. 1940:—

R. Berks. R.

Charles Alexander ROBSON (126448).

Anthony RAMPTON (126449).

Hugh Hilary Veraon SPREADBURY (126450).

Michael Henry SEYMOUR (126451).

Link to the Gazette is Here

Hope this helps.

Steve

[cumbrianangel]

Hi Steve,

So much information - thank you so much!

I have looked at the entries in the London Gazette, I suspect I would never have found Charles as it was March 1944 and he was killed in the January. I didn't realise that it would appear after his death.

Not only was Charles my mum's cousin but she was also engaged to him at the time of his death. She still has a letter written by him, a version of a "Dear John" letter. In it he makes an excuse for feeling that he no longer felt they should marry, he also states that he felt that he wouldn't return home. This was shortly before he died so it was sadly very true. My partner believes that the letter was written to prepare mum for the worst and was perhaps soemthing that many men did. To this day, after almost 50 years of happy marriage to my late dad, she still still gets upset if Charles's name is mentioned.

For that reason I had completely forgotten that Charles was a Sandhurst, can I ask how he would have come to attend?

So many questions and I'm sure you must all be fed up with me already!

But thank you so much Steve - and everyone else that has helped me!

best wishes,

Shirley

[cumbrianangel]

Hello everyone,

I have written all these details once but somehow they got deleted, if by any chance they DO arrive on the message board please forgive me!

After all the wonderful detail I have been given over the past 24 hours, I am now wondering where to go next.

I see the words "medal rolls" metioned quite often - can someone please explain excactly what they are?

I think I have sussed out how to attach his MIC to this message, any further info. re the wording on it would be very much appreciated, I haven't attached the other medal card as this is the one that puzzles me because of all the entries on it.

I understand what the "15 star" means now but can make out much else apart from DofW of course. At the top it states "1915 star" then something that we can't read then the date "16.3.22". This date appears again in the centre of the card. But he died in 1917?

At the bottom left there is "Quali??????" stamped with the date 19.12.14 - what does this signify?

With regard to his son who was KIA in 1944, I have copy of his death cert. which states he was "2nd Lt. (W.S/Lt) (Temp. Capt). The Royal Bershire Regiment but on his memorial it states he was Major, is there a reason for this?

Enough - I am confusing myself so hate to think what I am doing to you all!

Best wishes,

Shirley

[cumbrianangel]

Shirley,

Welcome to the Forum,

I have lots of information on the Irish Fusiliers as I collect medals to that Regiment, this information includes Battalion diaries and Medal rolls along with citations for the DCM.

If you do an on line search of the mics you will see two cards for Alexander, the first one shows his rank as Sgt the second one his rank from Sgt to 2/Lt, it’s not so unusual to have more than one medal index card. These show the medals that the men were awarded which along with his 1914/15 Star would include a British War and Victory medal plus of course his DCM.

Robson mic

If you click on the 'see details' next to each entry once you have opened the above link they will show you these details. You can download these mics and the NA site also gives descriptions of the medals awarded.

As regards the London Gazette, this can be hit and miss when searching, but I have found the entry for Alexander.

[Black Watch]

Qualified 19/12/14 is the date he first entered theatre of war. (France)

Can't really read the rest, to small for my old eyes

Comm = Comission so this is something about his promotion from the ranks.

[Guest KevinEndon]

here it is again but a little bit mucho grande

[cumbrianangel]

Good morning all and many thanks Kevin. You have managed to succeed where I failed because when I enlarged the image and tried to repost it, it told me the attachment was too big! If there is anything else written on it that I've not been told about I'd love to know - still pondering on the double mention of the date 16.3.22 and if there is any mention of his DCM?

Best wishes,

Shirley

[cumbrianangel]

Hi,

I have now been told that there is definately no mention of Alexander Robson's DCM on his MIC and it has been mentioned that it could have subsequently been taken away. For what reason would this happen?

The other option apparently is that it could have been a mistake and simply omitted - is this something that often happened?

I have no idea where the medal is or any others that were awarded to him. My elderly aunt who is now 91 knew nothing of his DCM until I told her earlier this week so it obviously wasn't talked about within the family.

Any clues to it's omission would be most helpful,

best wishes,

Shirley

[Stebie9173]

The removal of a gallantry medal from a soldier, and especially an officer, was a serious thing, usually only as a result of a courts martial.

It would (at least ...should...) have been recorded on his DCM card (which I presume is the "other" card).

The card posted is a campaign medals card. It's purpose was to act as a handy index (as in index card) for the Army Medals Office to have as a record (Family History was not a consideration!). Hence, many of these cards did not state "DCM", "MC", "MM" or even "VC" on them, though some did. At the moment, no evidence to suggest removal would mean you should treat them as won and kept fair and square.

As regards the Medal Card itself, it shows that Alexander Robson was a serving soldier at the start of the war (or at least being held on Reserve since he would not have had time to be trained and get overseas before Dec 1914) and went overseas with the Royal Irish Fusiliers (almost certainly with the 2nd Battalion of the RIF who landed in France with 27th Division at that time - soldiers would sometimes move between battalions after being wounded so the battalion he died with is not always the battalion he started with)

At the time of setting foot in France - the date 19-12-1914 - he was a Sergeant. At that moment he earned his Campaign Medals. The 1914-15 Star (awarded to men serving overseas before 31-12-1915 and not entitled to the earlier 1914 Star - the cut-off date for the 1914 Star was 22-11-1914), and the Victory Medal and British War Medal.

By the end of his time with the army during the war (i.e. his death) he had risen to the rank of 2nd Lieutenant, the lowest officer (known as Commissioned) rank.

The "Comm" part of the MIC would refer to him being "Discharged to Commission". Effectively the man was discharged from the Army and re-enlisted as an officer the next day.

The two stamped boxes refer to the Medal rolls. These are books stating the soldiers entitlement to medals. These occasionally give a little extra detail, usually confined to the soldiers battalion.

His medal will be issued from two seperate Rolls.

His Victory Medal and British War Medal would be from one Roll. These will state the highest rank attained, and in Alexander's case would be issued from an Officers Roll.

The 1914-15 Star, since it was a "single moment in time" medal was issued from the general "Other ranks" Roll since he was a Sergeant. This medal would give his rank as Sergeant.

The 1922 date and the references next to the bracket would be to some correspondence regarding his medals. None of this correspondence remains unless in his Army File. The writing along the top edge of the card may explain this somewhat. It could be that two 1914-15 Stars were awarded in error, as two slightly different references occur on the card.

I hope this helps,

Steve.

[Guest Ellabertie]

Hi, I have just discovered this website. I am really interested in this thread. Charles Alexander Burleigh Robson of The Royal irish Fusiliers 2nd Battalion was my great greatgrandfather, his son Chales Alexander Robson of the Royal Berkshire Regiment my great uncle. I have the original documentation for the military cross awarded to my great uncle but no medal.

I am really interested in the story of the Royal Irish 2nd battalion and where they were stationed during my great great grandfathers lifetime with them. Is there a timeline anywhere i could search. I have him serving in the uk based in Bordon Hants, In India, France and of course the great war. Would anybody be able to give me any advice on where i could find where he lived when he enlisted. I also saw earlier that he was listed as being on the war memorial in Lichfield somewhere i had never know him to be stationed. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks

Mark

[Stebie9173]

Alexander Robson of the Royal Irish Fusiliers has an officers file at the National Archives at Kew. This is stored under Reference WO 339/69277

http://discovery.nat...ls?uri=C1123113

(Although the Catalogue entry does not have much detail on it the index to these papers confirms it is the right set of papers for Alexander Robson of the Royal Irish Fusiliers)

The files are not online, but there is an option to have it scanned and sent by e-mail, however this can get very expensive very quickly.

These files are usually very useful, especially when a man has previously served "in the ranks" as their non-officer files are usually appended to the officer section which tends towards details of their commission, and any odd events like being wounded or discipline problems. Officers who died will usually have details concerning their estate.

Steve.

[tullybrone]

Hi Shirley,

if you are keen to find out more about the WW2 service of your relative

Lieutenant (temporary Captain) Charles Alexander Robson (126448),

The Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) (Finchampton, Berks).

if you are not already aware you may wish to alsogoogle and join "WW2 Talk" which is similar to this Great War Forum.

Regards,

Steve.