Sue Light Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 I know how much this forum loves spelling, so can anyone suggest a rule of thumb for using capital letters for words such as ‘battalion,’ ‘regiment,’ and ‘army,’ when writing articles. Some things seem fairly clear cut, such as: ‘4th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment’ or ‘The British Army,’ but what about: ‘Harold considered the many regiments and battalions of the army, but eventually decided to chance his luck with his father’s old regiment – hopefully by now the battalion would have forgotten the events of 1962 when the army was rocked by the scandals in the 6th battalion….or would perhaps a foreign army be a better choice, or even the navy…..’ It always looks a bit unwieldy to have a combination of upper and lower case initial letters for the same word within a sentence or paragraph, but seems a necessity. Any comments welcome. Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain mchenry Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Sue, I can tell you how it is today in the army, we always use capitals for Battalion and Regiment, even when they are used alone and not in the title of a Regiment. Abbreviations are the same also; Battalion = Bn Regiment = Regt Hope this is of some help. Regards Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 A capital letter should always be used for a 'proper noun'. These are usually fairly obvious but not always. When using the words 'regiment' and 'battalion' in a general context, the letters should be lower case but when referring to a specific unit by name, upper case should be used. (At least, that was what I was taught at school many moons ago). As a long time magazine publishing man, the only change I would make in your text example is an upper case 'B' for 'Battalion' after '6th'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 There are whole manuals on this question but I haven’t got time to start rummaging at the moment! When in doubt, I refer to: The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors The Oxford Writers’ Dictionary. I would capitalize proper nouns (titles) and use lower case otherwise. When in doubt, I would use lower case. The Oxford guidance is that initial capitals are used for: adjectives derived from proper names compound titles (Major General) geographical names with status (Northern Ireland) German nouns historical eras and events (First World War) nicknames proper names and attributes used as proper names rank ships, planes, vehicles titles and subtitles of books etc titles of corporations (eg government departments) courtesy titles (HRH the Prince of Wales) (selective list from Oxford Writers’ Dictionary - there are many more examples!) In writing about brigades, battalions, regiments and so on which are not specifically named, I would use lower case. This is the convention in publishing. Example taken at random from ‘The First Day on the Somme’ (Middlebrook): … the Manchesters had a hand in the capture, their 6th Pals being one of the battalions making the final assault. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 ... It always looks a bit unwieldy to have a combination of upper and lower case initial letters for the same word within a sentence or paragraph, but seems a necessity. ... No, it looks fine and it is correct too. Use capitals for the specific and lower case for the generic. Thus, “The Royal Sussex Regiment was but one of many regiments to take part in ...” All my writing references agree on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 proper names and attributes used as proper names I think that this is the bit I have particular difficulty with. Having already referred to a battalion by name e.g. 'The 4th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment landed at Suvla bay on 8th August 1915, and later on that night the battalion moved......' the use of the word 'battalion' later on in the same sentence clearly refers to the 4th Battalion and no-one else - but the form is shortened to save repetition. So in one way, the second time, it is being used to signify exactly the same thing as the first. This is when I tend to err on the side of the capital letter again..... Sorry if you're losing the will to live Regards - Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 proper names and attributes used as proper names I think that this is the bit I have particular difficulty with. Having already referred to a battalion by name e.g. 'The 4th Battalion Royal Sussex Regiment landed at Suvla bay on 8th August 1915, and later on that night the battalion moved......' Sue. Surely that is Suvla Bay, not Suvla bay John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Am reminded of the old joke "Who led the Pedants Revolt"? Which Tyler!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Sue Your rendering of 'battalion' in your example is correct. The second time you are not using the word as a 'proper noun' (i.e. its name). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Hello again Sue! I haven’t personally lost the will to live; I am fascinated by language. ‘Attributes used as proper names’ means the usage when a feature which is an inherent characteristic of someone is used as a proper name. Eg a Cockney for a person from some parts of London, or a Blue for someone who has represented Oxford or Cambridge in sports. The extensive use of initial capitals, as in German, was fashionable in the 17th and 18th centuries but eventually came to be regarded as an irritation, because it could be very difficult to distinguish what was a proper name and what wasn’t when almost every noun was capitalised. I tend to think that you can answer your own question by asking whether you want to distinguish a specific name or noun from the mass of text. Your words may need initial capitals to distinguish their meaning, eg number ten or Number 10, east end or East End, the rising sun (dawn) from the Rising Sun (an inn), rabbit, which is an open ended word or Peter Rabbit, who is a specific rabbit. You can also look at how proper nouns are distinguished from common ones: · a proper noun doesn’t need a definite article, or similar, in a sentence or a clause (eg. I love Chester ) whereas most common nouns do (eg cat is on bed) · you can’t usually pluralise proper nouns: Chesters, Gwyneths · you don’t usually use determiners: a Chester, the Gwyneth (I know there are many exceptions to these generalisations but this isn’t a linguistics forum.) I don’t think that the overall appearance of your text matters as much as clarity and technical accuracy, unless you are writing poetry, in which case you might wish to break rules to achieve a particular visual effect. There’s a thought. Just write a poem and do whatever you like! Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Sue Whether grammattically correct or not, the convention I use on all my web pages (errors excepted), is to describe the man's unit with a capital B; named other units also with a capital B and everything in lower case. So, for example:- "John and the other members of his Battalion left their trenches at 8am. On their left, was the 17th Battalion, Manchester Regiment. There was another battalion attacking on their right." Yours in pedantry John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 There’s a thought. Just write a poem and do whatever you like! Aaah.... poetry......! A thought indeed..... "The fourth battalion set out one day Their destination Suvla Bay They slept and ate near Choc’lut Hill And soon the whole damn’d lot were ill….." On second thoughts.......perhaps not John Now I thought I was beginning to understand, but perhaps I detect that you're swinging the other way [or is that unfortunate terminology ] Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Evans Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Use capitals for the specific and lower case for the generic. Thus, “The Royal Sussex Regiment was but one of many regiments to take part in ...” I am currently copying the war diary of the 2nd South Staffords into a 'Word' document and this certainly appears to have been the rule when it was originally written Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 , but perhaps I detect that you're swinging the other way [or is that unfortunate terminology ] Perhaps. At the risk of offending the Grammar Police (now, should that be upper or lowercase ?), I think Gwyn gets it spot on. Clarity/consistency - much more important than technical accuracy. My problem is getting my tenses to be consistent. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 In the strictly narrow sense of military words, I lean on WFA 'advice to contributors', readily available. There is also seemingly an historical slide towards lower case: whereas one sees Battalion [generic] for example in 1930's accounts, it is rare to see it nowadays except as part of a title. I understand that when Robt. Graves corrected Frank Richards first draft of OSND, he went through changing lots of lower case to upper case. The exception [as ever] might be when referring to one's own, as where the Royal Air Force Regiment is always referred to as 'The Regiment' and the captial R is pronounced as well as written! If you wish to see old age, you never innocently ask "Which regiment?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Now, on to the real question. Sue, please don't keep us in suspense. What DID Harold decide to do? Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Now, on to the real question. Sue, please don't keep us in suspense. What DID Harold decide to do? So sorry Gwyn - I really must have a word with Harold about all this fantasising - in real life he's never been engaged in fiction of any sort!! No, seriously, all my web pages start with 'Tom...Dick...Harry was born in 1895, the second son of.....' and end with 'Tom...Dick...Harry has no known grave and is commemorated on....' with rather a lot of 'battalion,' in between! Sebastian Faulks I ain't. But thanks to everybody for their contributions - I think it will result in a lot more lower case words, and yes, clarity and consistency. I only wish I'd asked the question 70 web pages ago Regards - Sue [just off to start being consistent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Sebastian Faulks I ain't. You and me, both! OK - new game, then. Suggestions for variations on theme of :- "Fred and his mates left their trenches and got cut down by heavy machinen gun fire". With 200+ on the memorials, I think I ran out of different ways of phrasing this some time back. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Bitte, was ist das machinen gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BryanShanks Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 LB 1418 I think the SAS might have something to say about who is "The Regiment." How about Rock Apes for yours. Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 What about an award for the worst opening of any novel or factual book on the Great War? Or, to be different, the worst ending. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 LB 1418 I think the SAS might have something to say about who is "The Regiment." How about Rock Apes for yours. Bryan RAF Regiment formed before SAS. Never "Rock Apes", just "Rocks" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Sue, maybe your sub-title for this thread should have been: Too B or not too b or mayB not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 People might be interested to see why Anzac should be used instead of the capitalised ANZAC. See Bryn Dolan's great website http://www.anzacs.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Thanks for putting up that link Andrew I have to agree a "great website" Regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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