Mark Hone Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 There was a 'Times' article today about the growth of visitor numbers to The Ypres Salient and the reaction of 'traditionalists' to increasing commercialisation. Nothing we haven't discussed before on this forum and there were some inaccuracies. ('Gross Market' anyone?) One anonymous 'traditionalist' was bemoaning clapping at the Last Post ceremony which it was implied was a recent development. On the contrary, I can remember this happening ten years ago and in my (admittedly sporadic) experience it doesn't seem as common as it once was. Any other comments, folks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 I attend "Last Post" on average about every ten days or so for most of the year, and I would agree with you Mark. Spontaneous applause has become less common. I've noticed that you still sometimes get someone who starts to clap, but it is no longer taken up by lots of other people and usually fizzles out in a few zeconds. Of course, Jacky will be able to give us the best answer based on his observations, as he's there more than any of us! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Please do not judge those who applaud too harshley, as an Actor and Director of some 20 years I usualy Find that applause comes from a spontaneous desire to be involved, or as the only way of expressing thanks for an event witnessed. Many of the people at The Gate will only have this form of expression at their disposal. So if thats the only way they have of saying Thank You, both to The Fallen and the Buglers well who are we to say otherwise. all the best[i Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Paul I think you make an interesting point. I must admit that I have always felt slightly uncomfortable about the applause but I may now look at it in another light. Interestingly enough, I wonder if the idea of a "smaller world" has also made an impact. By that I mean cross-cultural influences. For instance,I have been on a number of European trips when Japanese visitors have been present and who always applaud politely when a guide has finished each section of a tour. As you have mentioned, another way of saying thankyou. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgardiner1418 Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Terry Thank you for that, I just think that the problem is, in this day and age," how do we react ?" 50 years ago the boundries were clarly drawn, but today? Everything is so" Post Modern. " People, I think ,just want to express Somthing ,and when you are dealing with the almost abstract,well its just about all they can do. best wishes , Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Has anyone thought the appalause might be in appreciation of the people who took part in the service? Either way who cares. If it does bother you then why not suggest to the "powers that be" that signs are put up! Joking aside many of the visitors to the Menin Gate will have been to few if any of these ceremonies so have very little idea of the way the Ceremony is going to be run. I believe this is why you often see people looking uncertain of what is going on during the silence. I noticed at the Cenotaph yesterday a lot of the younger people there kept their baseball caps on throughput the proceedings. It wasn't disrespect (many of them were still singing the National Anthem etc.) I'm sure they just didn't realise it was expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 11 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2003 Chewing gum is also becoming a regular feature (e.g Army Cadets marching past the Cenotaph last year, scouts at the service I attended on Sunday. ) As you say it's not conscious disrespect, it just needs a quiet word from NCOs , officers etc. Several children at the Two Minutes' Silence at Bury this year had obviously not been briefed about it and talked all the way through. The adults with them needed a slightly firmer grip. (MJH-Grumpy Middle-Aged Man) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 16 November , 2003 Share Posted 16 November , 2003 A young man laying a wreath at the Arthur Halestrap Last Post Ceremony was waiting with hands firmly stuffed in pockets with his lady companion carrying the wreath. I was mentally willing him to remove them as their part of the proceedings approached. Thank goodness, he did ! I am also now less uncomfortable with applause when it happens. As has been said, people just want to register their approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 A couple of things and excuse me for being long-winded. Menin Gate ceremony: I agree with the posters above who say "what do you expect people to do?" Clapping is a cross-cultural way of showing appreciation. Although I have only been to two of the ceremonies and my reaction at the end was to reach for my hankerchief so I could wipe my eyes ... clapping might just be a way of saying "thank you" ... thanks for standing there and doing this for all these years, etc. A second point about baseball caps, etc. Ladies and Gentlemen, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but we live in a MTV world. In my college class I am specfically instructed NOT to enforce any sort of dress code nor can I, other than using some level of generalized "teacher" authority enforce any type of behavior. I have had student wear their bathing suits (or less) to class. I settle by asking for the males to take their hats off when they sit down. Many, don't even realize that wearing a hat indoors is not "proper" ... part of that is Texan, (cowboys didn't take their hats off in public accommodations of the "meanest" sort) but, I believe, the majority of this is because our culture is one of "youth" and an almost steady progression of "disestablishment" of "proper" attire. I am one of the few instructors that wears a tie and when the weather permits, wear my coat (sports jacket or blazer) while I teach. Face it, the manners most of us were taught have long since become "old-fashioned" and a sign of not being with it. But, that said, one can act - perhaps without too much anger, belligerence and hostility - to preserve some level of "respect" ... I am continually dismayed by the people climbing all over the statue of QV in front of Buckingham palace ... can't do much about that but when trying to take this picture I couldn't get the shot because a bunch of "kids" were taking their shoes off and sliding through the water ... the kids were from a German school group, but their nationality didn't matter ... I am sure they were tired and a bit bored after being monumented to death all day and it was hot. I walked over to the group of "minders" who seemed to be in charge and asked them, out of respect to the Canadian soldiers who gave their lives being commemorated by the memorial if they could keep their charges from playing on it ... They were incredibly embarrassed and did so immediately. (In typical German fashion!) ... I got my picture ... But, another group approached and almost immediately, shoes were discarded and this time it was a middle-eastern group, playing in the water ... So it goes ... but, in a very real sense ... what is meaningful to one group is not to others ... and unless we post armed guards on each and every one, we have to allow for non-destructive, but in our minds disrespectful actions - it is just part of the deal I'm afraid for our egalitarian, informal world doesn't do much for curbing the public behavior of most people. Think about how wonderfully free of graffiti and damage the huge majority of these shrines and memorials are ... To my eye, it is an incredible sign of general respect that there is still budget to keep the parks almost pristine and beautiful and the overwhelming majority of people show what we, who care, consider "proper" respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koyli Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 I don’t agree with the applauding at the Menin gate, nor do I agree with the excuse that was put forward (it being a way of showing gratitude). To me it should still be all about respect. I don’t applaud at the end of a funeral or when I come out of church after Sunday mass. There is a time and place for everything. The Menin gate is and should always be about remembering the fallen of the WWI. That’s why so many years ago it was instituted by local people. Today however it is local policy to see it as a Peace manifestation. A symbol of what war brings. And a warning to all the war- hungry people to stop. I don’t agree with the change in the symbolism. Soon the Menin Gate ceremony will only be a tourist attraction pure and simple. I sometimes think that that is what local politicians want. Like a lot of people who attend the ceremony of the keys at the Tower, or the trooping of the colour in London, those in attendance will not even know what it is really about. KOYLI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 Soon the Menin Gate ceremony will only be a tourist attraction pure and simple. I sometimes think that that is what local politicians want. Like a lot of people who attend the ceremony of the keys at the Tower, or the trooping of the colour in London, those in attendance will not even know what it is really about. Be thankful that at least tourism keeps these things 'alive' for those who do know the meaning and are appreciative of their origins. At least you can be there safe in your knowledge. Remove the tourism and decay will surely set in, not only the Menin Gate but to many other things taken for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 Remove the tourism and decay will surely set in, not only the Menin Gate but to many other things taken for granted. Salientpoints - Please explain what you mean by this.............It has only been a fairly recent phenomenon that the Menin Gate in particular & Great War sites in general have been 'tourist attractions'. For many, many years the crowds were small however this never stopped the daily remembrance which occurs at the gate.....I wouldn't call that remembrance as being 'in decay' then. If the crowds disappear once again & all that remains is a few paying homage, does this mean what happens at 8.00pm each evening is in decay?......I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 Will, surely anyone can appreciate that somewhere in all this money governs the upkeep an drunning of everything everyone in here appreciates. Do you really think that successive Governments whether in UK or Belgium or wherever will continue forevermore to pour thousands into various organisations? Every single kind of imaginable organisation and trust, heritage, charity etc has to bid to further organisations, charities, trusts etc to 'win' money these days. Money has to be raised to support the organisations, upkeep etc. Tourism is a vital part of keeping the memory alive - the further away we get from the events in question, and of course the further detached the visitors get from those family members who fought and died on the battlefields the more it is down to tourism and the media (books, tv etc) to remind them. At the end of the day I am simply saying things will decay inevitably with time unless money is found to support them. Tourism is a vital way to raise these funds. I for one would not be surprised if the Last Post Ceremony changed to lets say Sat & Sun only in the next 50 years....I would be saddened but not surprised.... Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianw Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 I think I can say with a fair degree of certitude that the Last Post Committee (including Jacky) and the Buglers will keep this ceremony going whether 1 visitor or 1000 visitors come along. After all these men are the successors of individuals whose bugles sounded on the evening of the day the Germans left Ypres in retreat. Yes, of course it's on the tourist route but I welcome any visitor who cares to visit. I am sure many get something from the ceremony and the place and take it away with them. As regards the applause, we cognescenti can watch it and have the confidence to quietly drift away. However, the ceremony is , on one level, a marvellous piece of musical theatre and applause is a logical response. We also need to remember that applause is an appropriate response anyway in many societies. I can't comment on what may occur in 50 years but there will certainly be an increasing interest in the Great War as we approach the centenary in 2014. So I can see it being business as usual until 2020 or so. By then I hope my son, daughters and their generation will be have become interested and I will be handing the torch on to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 As I've stated I really see nothing wrong with the clapping. At least the Ceremony is being appreciated. I was unlucky enough to be sat within 50 yards of the several portsmouth "fans" who paid no respect to the minute's silence (which had to be abandoned after 25 seconds) at Southampton on Tuesday. Now if something like that was happening at the Menin Gate then we really would have something to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 (...) I for one would not be surprised if the Last Post Ceremony changed to lets say Sat & Sun only in the next 50 years....I would be saddened but not surprised.... Ryan, Of course, 50 years is a long time in our fast developing society, with priorities changing all the time, and predicting what will be kept and what will have vanished by then is impossible. But with regard to the Great War in the Ypres area, I really would stake my last euro on it that the Last Post ceremony will not have become a 'Saturday / Sunday only' ceremony by then. Everything points the other way. There were times, 15 years or so ago, on a cold windy evening in October or so, that I was not very optimistic, seeing that the number of visitors was hardly higher that the number of visitors. But nowadays ... ! ___ As to the clapping. Sorry, but I really don't see why some people can worry about that. Of course this is something I had to get used to myself. But there is no doubt about this : this applause is an expression of gratefulness, appreciation, admiration etc, but it is never a sign of disrespect, not even indirectly. So : no need to worry. I would not encourage it, but if visitors applaud, no problem ... And the Menin Gate applause - if it occurs - certainly is different from the cheering and whistling at a pop concert. There is clapping and there is clapping, and at the Menin Gate, it is of the 'better' kind. Besides, applause in these circumstances inded can be an expression of respect, a homage. When our king was buried 10 years ago, people along the way applauded too. And the Queen was dressed in white, not in black or grey. The times they are a-changing. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 Maybe I am a bit strange, but I think any appreciative response on the part of people is very commendable. Because you don't think it's proper, doesn't mean it isn't proper for everyone ... and it disturbs nobody in any measurable way. Tourism meaning people coming to see, remember or share is desirable. Facilities and attractions for those people are important as well. Taste and encroachment are always concerns as is the process of keeping things as they were. All of that is political and will be handled by stakeholder yet ultimately defined by the marketplace. (Money) I take this as the same way the decision was made to limit the "Changing of the Guard" ceremoney at Buckingham palace. "Cost Cutting" ... strange, the heritage business is probably one of the largest factors in UK's gross national product ... but has it really changed that much? Now, destroying the House of Lords - to me that's another matter ... THAT was shameful ... but, then, I'm an american who could only wish we had a legislative (to some extent) body devoid of "interest" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 1. Do you really think that successive Governments whether in UK or Belgium or wherever will continue forevermore to pour thousands into various organisations? 2. I for one would not be surprised if the Last Post Ceremony changed to lets say Sat & Sun only in the next 50 years....I would be saddened but not surprised.... Ryan I'm sorry Ryan but I don't agree that without tourism the act of remembrance will 'decay'..............tourism has of course transformed the way the Great War is now viewed, studied, looked at............call it what you like, and much of it has been positive & welcome (although I feel some has crossed the line & become exploitive) & yes generates a great deal of money.............However tourism itself is a commercial 'animal'. The object of commerce is to make money..........the object of remembrance is to remember, & whilst the two aspects work well together, remembrance does not need tourism to continue. I have extracted 2 of your points to comment on. 1. Yes I REALLY do think successive Governments will continue forevermore to fund various organisations associated with remembrance. That is the historical price they pay for what happened 90 years ago. I hope that they do it willingly. If they need to be dragged kicking & screaming to fulfil this perpetual obligation then so be it. Me or people like me will do the dragging. 2. No, I don't ever believe this will be the case & I would echo Aurel's comments on this. You may think my view naive or idealistic.............. perhaps it is............but I also think it to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 I guess we will just have to agree to disagree kind of... Whilst I would abstain from voting on allowing the clapping. I am just making my point that we should accept or understand how people behave to 'cermonial' events. Furthermore I am simply outlining that times and money change things over time and sometimes we have to accept a middle ground in order to preserve some part of history or event. I think Andy's showcase scenario of the reduction of Changing of the Guard is a perfect example. I could raise the other example of how the British Government is put under pressure in recent years to 'persuade' our society to 'get over' the Second World War (much like 1966) but I won't open that can of worms in here. Personally I 100% agree with Aurel and yourself really in my personal view of battlefields etc (but we must keep an open mind) and would for one sign up to any petition against reducing any commemoration or memorial services. I am aware of the increase in funding the current Belgian Government is currently giving to the tourist trail for sightseers of the Western Front and Ypres Salient and fully support this exploitation of the modern battlefield tourist. Thank goodness we thank those who fought for us so we can live in a democracy with freedom of speech eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientpoints Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 I have been meaning to add to this since last month but forgot until I saw Jacky's posting on LPA website photos. Whilst at the ceremony last month some folks did clap whether out of appreciation, respect or admiration I have no issue with that, what did annoy me was someone very near me who voiced his opinions a little too loudly for my liking almost shouting out 'no...no....no...' at anyone near him who attempted to clap. It is an individuals decision (I know new visitors may join in or wonder what they should do either way) but why someone should feel it is his position to enforce his wishes on others at such a location was beyond me. I say appreciate it in your own way and let others do the same. Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 Hello, I must say I saw people clapping not so long ago at a funeral of a cyclist when the coffin was carried out... I must admit I can't understand that habit... Regards, Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 Ryan. I had not intended to add my thoughts to this post, as along with other family members I only go to the ceremony at the Menin Gate about once a month, I/We have noticed over the years the difference regarding clapping, also the stark contrast with same at different times of the year, with less people during the Winter months, of more concern to me is the conduct of people, I am sad to say of my generation (retired) that perhaps due to having hearing difficulties, or no excuse make comments, express their personal opinions etc at the most inopportune moments, even during the sounding of Last Post, as such I can relate to your post and your comments, it has been rather embarrasing when taking visitors (neighbours) to the ceremony for the first time and having told them of its real meaning, to end up making excuses for a total stranger regarding their conduct, as such thank you for your post, I was starting to think it was just me! David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 Not really a comment about clapping at the last post ceremony, rather an enquiry, probably better aimed at Jacky P. I was at the ceremony on several occasions in early May this year. On the 11th (I think) the proceedings were held up with a medical emergency. It appeared that an old lady had either been knocked down or had collapsed. It looked quite serious at the time. Does any pal have an update to the condition of the woman as my friend and I were very concerned. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacky Platteeuw Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 Andy, It was a lady who had been hit by a car. She stayd more than a week at the local hospital due to serious complications (internal bleeding) and spent 3 days on intensive care. Fortunately she recovered quit quickly. Jacky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 13 July , 2004 Share Posted 13 July , 2004 Thanks for the update Jacky. I'm very happy the lady recovered as it did look very serious at the time. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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