kin47 Posted 2 September , 2006 Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Hello From most sources, sailing vessel ELSIE BIRDETT was lost in April 1918 to unknown cause with her crew of 6, which included her Master. She is generally attributed to submarine loss. Can anyone shed any information on her loss? All best don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 2 September , 2006 Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Don, She was sunk by U 152 on April 3, 1918 at 44°38'N, 24°28'W. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 2 September , 2006 Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Don/Michael, Could either of you point me to a website where I can enter coordinates and get a map representation of the position - preferably at a large-enough scale to see the position at sea relative to adjacent land. Thanks Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 2 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Hello Michael Many thanks. All best don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 2 September , 2006 Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Don/Michael, Could either of you point me to a website where I can enter coordinates and get a map representation of the position - preferably at a large-enough scale to see the position at sea relative to adjacent land. Thanks Mick Mick, Hopefully this link will work; as thr longitude is a Westing you will need to enter it as -24 (rather than 24) and put 0 in the "seconds" boxes. Below is the location it gave me for the Elsie Birdett's loss. Lat/Long map Best wishes. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 2 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2006 Hello Thank you for your replies. Armed with a correct date and a declared lost date, I am still unable to locate these casualties on the CWGC website. Can anyone help? Thank you. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 20 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 September , 2006 Hello I have checked through the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Tower Hill Memorial and found no casualties for ELSIE BIRDETT. The Master and five crewmen were reportedly lost in her. Can anyone give any information on the ship itself: owner, port of register, etc? Thank you. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 20 September , 2006 Share Posted 20 September , 2006 If the Board of Trade put the loss down to non-war causes, the men would not qualify for CWGC listing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 21 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Hello Terry Denham Thank you for your reply. Lloyd's War Losses shows her a victim of a German submarine and Michael Lowery has confirmed this information. Is this a case of a small ship falling between the cracks? Thanks again. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Don It could be - but not definitely yet. Some more info is needed. It will revolve on which service the deceased crew were members of. If they were British (or other Commonwealth) Mercantile Marine and they were killed by an enemy attack, they will qualify. It is possible that the Board of Trade simply missed them or that they believed that the loss was not due to war causes thereby removing the crew's qualification. If we can get more information we can take this case forward. However, we need the names of the crew first. Does anyone have these names? Was it a Commonwealth ship - could it have been American owned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Bit about U 152 here: http://uboat.net/wwi/boats/index.html?boat=152 Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Don, Have you access to Lloyds' Registersof Shipping, for 1918 & years before? If Elsie Birdett is in this will give master, owners, port of registry etc. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 'Lloyds War Losses' confirms that she was sunk by submarine off the Azores on 30.04.18 and that she was British. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Terry, Note the asterisks besides the date in Lloyd's War Losses, which indicates the date of loss is approximate. Likewise, British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18 lists ELSIE BIRDETT with the loss to submarine at an unknown date in Apri 1918. Will get a scan from U 152's KTB (war diary), as I'm sure you'll need it. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Michael Yes, I noticed that but forgot to look up its meaning!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 21 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 21 September , 2006 Hello Kath Sorry, no Lloyds for that period. Lots for WW II, but that's a different matter. Can someone come to the rescue on this? ELSIE BIRDETT seemed such a simple matter when this started. All best don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 21 September , 2006 Share Posted 21 September , 2006 The earlier Lloyds may give a clue, otherwise a long trawl through marine deaths for 1918. Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 22 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2006 Hello Kath Already done the GRO Marine Death index for 1918. No ELSIE BIRDETT listed. This does not necssarily mean the crew of the sailing vessel were not British as other ships, notably S.S. TASMAN, and their British crews do not appear in the index. Thanks. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 But it does start to construct a reason for them not being recorded by CWGC. If they have no GRO Death Certificates, it reinforces the probability that the Board of Trade did not know of their deaths and did not include them in the lists supplied to CWGC. Assuming they were British, that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 Coincidence? http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?s...tlantic/Results http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:2dKio3...t=clnk&cd=1 Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 Burgeo, Newfoundland absolutely makes sense. Elsie Birdett was sunk on a voyage from Oporto to Burgeo! Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 And they are commemorated! Wrong date of death though. Albert Hann: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=722852 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 Three of the others: Henry Dicks: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=722833 Ward Collier: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=722827 John Hatcher: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=722855 No luck though on a second Hatcher or a Strickland, as the site Kath found mentions as crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 22 September , 2006 Share Posted 22 September , 2006 My link http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?s...tlantic/Results didn't come up with results so here they are: Name Date of Death Ship COLLIER, Ward 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette DICKS, Henry 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette EVANS, John 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette HANN, Albert 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette HATCHER, John 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette STRICKLAND, Ward 03/30/18 Elsie Burdette and for 1st. man: Sailor's Name: COLLIER, Ward Rank of sailor: *** Nationality: Newfoundland Date of Death: 03/30/18 Name of Ship: Elsie Burdette Registration of ship: Lunenburg, N.S Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 22 September , 2006 Author Share Posted 22 September , 2006 Hello Many, Many, Many thanks to all!!! I had never pursued the Newfoundland end. One note, Strickland is shown as Stickland in CWGC. Great work! don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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