17th London

[stiletto_33853]

The 3rd THR, raised in 1940, became the 5th Recce Regiment in the 5th Division in 1941, although it kept its "Greenjacket" connections through its two commanding officers, Lieutenant-Colonel N.R. Brockley, OBE, and Lieutenant-Colonel M.F. Douglas-Pennant, MBE, and by many officers, warrant officers and NCO's from both The Kings Royal Rifle Corps and The Rifle Brigade who served with the regiment during its distinguished service.

After the war, on the reforming of the Territorial Army in 1947 sadly the Tower Hamlets Rifle ceased to exist and became 656 LAA Regiment RA (Rifle Brigade). In 1955 it amalgamated with 512 (Finsbury Rifles) LAA Regiment RA and 568 (St. Pancras) (M) LAA and Searchlight Regiment RA to form a new 512th LAA Regiment RA. This unit, in 1961 amalgamated with 459 (The Essex Regiment) HAA Regiment RA and 517 LAA Regiment (5th Essex) to form the 300 LAA Regiment RA. The Tower Hamlets connection was re-established in 1965 when the name was changed to 300 (Tower Hamlets) LAD Regiment and in 1967 it joined with the 254 (City of London) Field Regiment RA to form the Greater London Regiment RA (T). Further amalgamation with the 6th and 10th Queens, the London and Kent Regiment RA (T) and the Surrey Yeomanry (Queen Mary's Regiment) RA (T) in 1971 made them part of the 6th (V) Bn The Queens Regiment, finally joining with the 7th Queens in 1975 they were absorbed into the 6/7th Queens.

[stiletto_33853]

For part of the post-war period these units occupied the Drill Hall in the Mile End Road, but more recently the RCT have been the incumbents. They have moved out and a new company of the 4th Bn The Royal Green Jackets is being raised there. So once again Riflemen will be seen in The Tower Hamlets their history stretching back to the Hckney Riflemen and beyond to the Gentlemen Volunteers of the Napoleonic Wars, The Elizabeth Trained Bands and the citizens who helped turn back the Danes. Indeed a long and worthy record of Volunteer Service to the country and The Tower Hamlets.

I hope this all helps a little.

Andy

[Pete1052]

Gosh, Andy, all the way from the 1500s to the present. Thanks for the information. I believe that I read somewhere that the Tower Hamlets area is now heavily Asian in population. Not too far from there, in Covent Gardens, some Cockney teenagers tried to snatch my wallet some years back, but they didn't get away with it.

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Pete,

Fine old lineage there, got a little confusing with all the TA amalgamations after WW2 though.

Trying to place another picture here of the 2nd THR Volunteer Boer War detachment to the City Inperial Volunteers here but it won't let me.

Andy

[Pete1052]

Grandma told me grandpa said they used a a ladder-like device to fool the Germans. It was like like a regular ladder, but with one of the side rails removed. When carried through a trench on the shoulders of two guys with the free ends of the "steps" of the ladder facing up, it was hoped that the Germans would be fooled onto believing that they were seeing rifles, and therefore think that the 1/17 London had been reenforced by another squad.

[Pete1052]

Another of grandpa's stories relayed to me by grandma concerned a trench that had been much battered by shell fire. One day the hand and forearm of a buried corpse emerged from the side of the trench. By that time grandpa and his mates had become so inured to the sights and smells of the battlefield that when they'd walk by the hand sticking out of the side of the trench they'd shake hands with it and say, "Hi Pal."

[digbklyn]

I have a diary by a lieutenant (Wilfred Piercy) with the 17th London (Poplar & Stepney Rifles). He had been with the 15th Middlesex until the merger. Lt. Piercy arrived in France in early March 1915 and died in Sept. 1915 at the Battle of Loos. Here's his photo and info from the Loos Memorial website:

Wilfred Ashton Piercy

Send me a PM or email, and I'll send you a transcription of the diary. It talks a lot about his men. Maybe your grandfather was one of them!

Lisa

PS. I'm another Yank. Brooklyn, NY

[digbklyn]

Hi Pete,

Here are some excerpts from Lt. Wilfred Piercy's diary, written in early to mid August 1915, shortly before he died at Loos. Lt. Piercy was educated and idealistic, but not wealthy or well-born. His father was George Piercy, the Wesleyan Methodist lay minister who founded the first Methodist mission in Canton, China. Wilfred Piercy was born in China, but educated in England. He was the French master at a well-regarded charity school in London, Whitechapel Foundation School (now Davenant School), when he volunteered to go overseas.

Written August 12, 1915: "And yet, after watching these fellows for twelve months, and especially during the last four, one feels that they are growing older – that they are becoming men. Here for instance was a tall thin lad with a dirty face and a frank boy’s smile, always ready with a joke and anxious to be useful. He was made an acting corporal, a corporal, and, which he doesn’t like, a bomber. He has learnt to be a leader. Though little broader, he has become firmer of limb. There is a determination in his features, and a new meaning in his large eyes. He is one of the potential heroes of whom one feels there are many around. Their friends who have not seen them all these months will find the lads widely changed when they return."

later on: "Some friction has arisen between Terriers and Kitcheners men at Noeux-les-Mines and elsewhere, but with us in the trenches there was nothing but mutual respect between the cockney and the jock.

In their simple, childlike unconsciousness of danger these lads are beyond admiration, as also in the way they recover self possession and spirit after escaping from/coming out of wreak and carnage, or the laughter or indifference with which they bear wounds. Perhaps this kind of courage is only given to young unreflecting beings. To abandon a comrade wounded or in danger is an inconceivable breach of honour."

A few days after: "But the men are worn down with four months worth of continuous work in and behind the firing line.....The continual exposure to fire for many weeks, though one noticed it less as time went on, was a constant nervous strain, reacting in irritability and depression. The men need rest, physical and mental, relaxation, games. Instead the ceaseless routine (round) of parades is embittered by the relentless training after “discipline.”

And the last entry: "It is little wonder that the boys are growing low spirited and discontented. Were they older men they could not be treated as they are. In a country where they could speak the language and shift for themselves they would slip away by scores. Some hundred will be time expired in the next few months; hardly one will sign on again. Nothing but the inexperience of the men and their want of money, their helplessness in a strange land and the unknown terrors of military law hold the Battalion together at the present time."

Not very upbeat at the end, but these are Piercy's immediate thoughts, not stories or memories filtered by time. As I said, anyone who wants a transcript of the entire diary (it's very short), should send me an email or PM.

digbklyn

Lisa

[Pete1052]

Lisa,

Thanks for posting Lt. Piercy's observations. In a similar vein, many of grandpa's stories about the war that have been passed on to me are blunt and unglamorous, not the stuff of romantic military history.

Pete

[Pete1052]

Grandfather remembered the Ghurkas who occasionally served with the 17th London. He said before they'd mount nocturnal excursions across no-man's-land they'd go around asking soldiers what they wanted from the German trench--watches, pistols, etc. When it was dark they'd strip down and oil their bodies, and then slither into German lines with only their kukris. The only souvenirs they'd keep for themselves were the severed ear lobes of the Germans they had killed.

[Gary]

Hi Gang,

I'm back again after a little break. I noticed those nice people at eastlondonpostcards have included a nice page about the pops, complete with campaign dates:

http://www.eastlondonpostcard.co.uk/POM2002/July02.htm

[PBI]

Check out my prevous postings in this thread.

[Gary]

Check out my prevous postings in this thread.

Hi PBI,

Sorry if I've repeated your posts. I did have a quick scan and didn't see anything relating to the list of battle honours and stuff. I am two years older since my last visit so hopefully I can be a little bit daft without too much recourse

[PBI]

No Worries Mate,glad to see new input on the Forum..

[Ron]

Read

'The Poplars' The story of the 1/17th in the First World War published by the East London History Society at £7.50 obtainable from the Society at mail@eastlondonhistory.org.uk. £2 postage.

Ron

[PBI]

I have it,and it is a really good read..well worth the Dosh.

[GaryS]

I have it,and it is a really good read..well worth the Dosh.

I've just read it and it is a very good book, I just wish it had dates in the margins when things were going on. That one criticism out the way, the book is a very good insight into what went on, the good (football competitions) and the bad (suffocated by mud in the trenches).

[Ron]

Greetings from the American side of the pond. My step-grandfather, Albert F. Kosh, was born in London and tried to join his dad's regiment, Rifle Brigade, in 1915. Rifle Brigade wouldn't let him in because he was too short, so he had to settle for service in the 17th London. At war's end he was one of five guys still with the 17th who remained from the original men from the 17th Battalion Pals in 1915.

In a book published in about 1940 I read that the 17th London was a territorial affiliate of Rifle Brigade, but I don't know whether that was the case in 1915. I assume that grandpa would have picked a Rifle unit as the next best thing to being in Rifle Brigade.

Postwar grandpa spent 1919 in a beery haze and then straightened himself out. He emigrated to Australia and farmed a station, and later emigrated to the San Francisco bay area of California, US. That was just in time for the Great Depression in 1929. He founded his own small building construction company and died in the '70s. His first-born son, Peter, died at age 8 from a congenital brain tumor that is believed to have been linked to grandpa's exposure to chemical agents. I'm named after that kid.

Can anyone here tell me about the 17th London?

Pete

Ron Wilcox: The Poplars (2007) available from East London History Society on www. eastlondonhistory.org.uk.

Ron

[Twiglet]

I've already started a thread on this topic, little knowing there was one here... please forgive me, I've been pointed in the right direction by Pete 1052 (thanks again).

Would you mind if I added Thomas Tallowin to this battalion? He joined up on 25/6/1918 aged 18, and took his oath at Tredegar Road.

[Pete1052]

The grandpa I knew in California in the late '50s, '60s, and '70s was a guy with a well-trimmed moustache who built a greenhouse in which he raised orchids. His dog Feather was a Whippet. He was soft-spoken and self-effacing, and he never said anything about the war other to say that he had been in it. My dad said in the '30s he used to spit-shine his shoes every day. I remember watching an episode of the American TV show "Combat" with him in 1963--when a German tank fired with a machine gun on American soldiers--who in the TV show survived--grandpa said that in the real world all the Americans would have all been killed.

[Guest DEdwards]

Hello,

This is a message for Pete1052.

I have been reading your postings with great interest.

I believe my ggrandmother was your great aunt.

I have also provided the link to several other Kosh "cousins" who are still in the UK who have also been reading the information about Albert F Kosh.

I hope there is some way we can get in touch outside of this forum?

Diane

dianedgm@hotmail.com

[mazzy205]

Hello,

Would like to add my grandads name onto this forum.

He was Private 3418 Percival Reginald Stock - Signal Section 3/17th Battalion London Regiment.

He was lucky enough to survive the war, but didn't speak about it to the family, so we know very little.

I know he was awarded the British War & Victory medal and also the SWB. He did mention to his son that he was wounded at some stage and was sent to a hospital in Scotland, but that is all we know.

I note that PBI had entered an attachment with a picture of the Drill Hall and also a photo of the 17th London Signal Section in September 2006. I have clicked on them, but nothing happens.

Any chance of getting to see them?

I hope that people are still reading this thread, as I see it has been going sometime. This is my first posting here, so didn't want to start a new topic when I saw this one was already going.

Hope to hear from 17th battalion descendants.

Regards

Mandy

[dobbin]

Hello,

Would like to add my grandads name onto this forum.

He was Private 3418 Percival Reginald Stock - Signal Section 3/17th Battalion London Regiment.

He was lucky enough to survive the war, but didn't speak about it to the family, so we know very little.

I know he was awarded the British War & Victory medal and also the SWB. He did mention to his son that he was wounded at some stage and was sent to a hospital in Scotland, but that is all we know.

I note that PBI had entered an attachment with a picture of the Drill Hall and also a photo of the 17th London Signal Section in September 2006. I have clicked on them, but nothing happens.

Any chance of getting to see them?

I hope that people are still reading this thread, as I see it has been going sometime. This is my first posting here, so didn't want to start a new topic when I saw this one was already going.

Hope to hear from 17th battalion descendants.

Regards

Mandy

Mandy have a look at this Colin

http://www.eastlondonpostcard.co.uk/Old_Pages.htm

[Guest margaret]

Henry Noe (also known as Harry) by my family joined the 17th London Regiment and was awarded the DCM. He was my grandfather's younger brother. . Grandfather's eldest son, George also joined the London Regiment as he was very fond of Henry. Henry married Frances Chapman, their son, Ronald joined the R.A.F during the 2nd World War and was killed in 1942. If anyone has any further info on Henry, or photos, I would be pleased to here from them..

[Dbaulch]

Adding my Great Grandfather to the list, Sgt Major William George Baulch served with the 17th Reserve Batallion London Regiment. I know very little about this time he spent during the war training the boys in musketry and drill. He was originally of the Rifle Brigade, serving in India for many years (eventually attached to the Poona Volunteer Rifles). I believe this picture could be from the 17th