49th Division

[Simon R]

Dear All,

I have been researching D battery 245th Brigade RFA (formerly 1/11th Ilkley Howitzers) and just thought I'd go fishing to see if anyone out there had a similar interest in this unit.

In a similar vein, does the ether contain anyone with an interest in 1/4th DWR?

[Rob HAmilton]

Simon

I have an interest in the 1/4th DWR as they were raised in my hometown, Halifax. During my research of local memorials I have found many men who served in the battalion. I have a copy of the battalion history if you need any information.

What interest do you have in them ?

Regards

Rob

[Rob HAmilton]

Simon

I am only researching local men but thanks for the offer.

As I said I have a copy of the battalion history which states they stationed in Thiepval Wood continuously from 8/7/16 - 19/8/16 and for most of that period they occupied the front line on the extreme left next to the River Ancre. I can supply copies of the relevant pages off forum if they would be useful to you.

Regards

Rob

[Simon R]

Rob,

Thanks for Battn. history offer but the regiment has already kindly provided me with p.copies of the relevant period.

[mcnab]

I wonder if you live locally to Ilkley and have possibly seen a fine original photograph in The Malt Shovel of several Howitzers and troops letting of rounds in Burley in Wharfedale recreation ground in WW1 surrounded by small boys?

I live in Burley myself, and have just decided to put some flesh to the names on our war memorial.

[Simon R]

I haven't seen that photograph before. Is it still there after all their recent renovation? It certainly isn't the Malt Shovel anymore!

Can you identify the unit? What type of howitzers are they using? The older 5" or the newer 4.5"?

Burley was of course the home of the 4th West Riding Brigade Ammunition Column, the ammo. col for the 4th West Riding (howitzer) Briagde RFA (TF) with the 1/10th bty. based at Otley and the 1/11th based at Ilkley. They were initially equipped with the pretty much obsolete 5" howitzer and re-equipped with the well designed 4.5" howitzer in 1916 (which saw service well into the second world war).

Wharfedale raised 3 lines during WWI - the the 1/4th WR bde. RFA (TF) in 49th Div., the 2/4th WR bde. RFA (TF) in 62nd Div. and a 3/4th WR bde. RFA (of which I have very little information and generally little is known) which provided reinforcements for the first two front line bdes.

You should find casualties from all of these. There will be a wide range of other units but the artillery will figure strongly.

If you've just started on your research, can I point you in the direction of a few sources? I can certainly help you with a couple of casualties and you should go and look at Bill Mulhollands excellent work on the Otley Parish Church war memorial in Otley Museum. You should check out the Ilkley Gazettes at Ilkley Library and the W&AO at Leeds Library and mine the Liddle Collection (also at Leeds library).

The GWF is also a great help, our pal rflory will most likely be able to help you with RFA/RHA/RGA casualties if you ask him nicely.

National archives of course (war diaries, soldiers papers etc) - I don't know how familiar you are with all this, you may have done this sort of thing before - but the Long, Long Trail etc will help get you started there.

First step: post up a complete list of names from the memorial and I'll let you know which ones I can help with. Once you know what's known, you can start on the unknown. I've done quite a bit of work on a wide range of Wharfedale casualties and there's no point duplicating it, unless you think I've ballsed up (which is possible).

[mcnab]

Thanks for all that Simon, some good starting points, I'll definitely be in touch

I'm sure the photo is still on the wall although I take for granted as it has been in there for the last 28 years at least! it's there with others of non war related local interest, it's a good size 16 x 9?, the place is known as Valentinos now, a sort of wine bar / Italian restaraunt, so you could perhaps pop in for a drink there and decide which howitizers they are, I wouldn't know the difference!

From memory , they are 3 with cleated wheels and those 2 wheeled horse drawn appliances for the ammo, lumbers? the church spire in the background and lots of smoke.

Obviously some sort of parade for the villagers, I'm pretty sure the Gazette has printed the same photo over the years and no doubt carried a contemporary account of the day.

[Simon R]

Ammunition limbers.

I'll have to go and have a look now, though I don't know if I can afford a drink there! I might see if I can get the back off it, with permission of course, that should be revealing.

Just out of interest, how do we know it's taken in Burley? Is the spire particularly distinctive? I only ask because I know that there are a series of photos taken in Otley with the Congregational Church spire in the background... hmm, suppose I'd better go and look for myself. Burley should have produced more photographs like the one described, mostly in postcard form, but their level of survival is highly variable. Otley's got over 100 because of it's numerous publishers and printers, presumably Burley had a resident photographer lurking somewhere too.

This project should prove interesting, good luck with it!

[mcnab]

Thanks for the mailed memorial casualties, hope you got the Capt. Benn stuff alright.

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Yes fascinating!

Now have most of my guys census and burial details without even leaving my armchair!

Intend to start thumbing through the Ilkley Gazette soon.

This soldier is interesting! Have you come accross him?

BATESON, JOHN WALKER

Initials:

J W

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Serjeant

Regiment: King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry

Unit Text: 6th Bn.

Age: 37

Date of Death:31/08/1915

Service No: 21756

Additional information: Husband of Margaret L. Bateson, of Coul Cottage, Balvaird, Muir-of-Ord, Ross-shire. Native of Burley-in-Wharfedale, Leeds.

Casualty Type:

Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference:

III. C. 38.

Cemetery:

LIJSSENTHOEK MILITARY CEMETERY        

From 'Gabby' (relative) in Canada.

John Walker, b.1878, Burley In Wharfedale. He also was back in Burley in Wharfedale in 1891,age13, lodging with a different family than his brother[John 13 Burley in W/dale Folio 49]. He married Margaret Ives in 4/4 of 1895 and was living at Cool Cottage, Balvaird,Muir-of- Ord,Rosshire,Scotland[near Inverness] in 1915. He was killed in France 31Aug.1915,age 37. He was a sergeant [#21756] in the 6th Bn.,King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. He is said to also have been in the Boer War

[Simon R]

He's in the Ilkley Gazette I think, noticed him in passing last week but don't ask me to say which one he was in! Can't remember!

There were a couple of Boer war veterans, haven't got much on them but BSM Tom Seymour of the Otley bty. was one.

[Simon R]

Pte. H. Ledger

4th West Riding RFA war diary; RA records c.1920.

'Doncaster 14th April 1915. The unit consisting of 16 officers and 392 other ranks under the command Lt. Col. Stephenson RFA TF left Doncaster in 3 trains for Southampton and embarked on the HT SS Anglo Canadian at 8 pm and reached Havre in the early morning of the 16th. Disembarked and spent the day in the Docks. 2 slight casualties occurred during the disembarkation of the guns. The hawser attached to the trail of a gun broke when the gun was about 12 feet from the ground and the trail swung over and struck Wheller Barker and Tptr. Ledger of the A.C. [Ammunition Column]. These men were at Havre.' p.1

'In glorious sunshine, that grew hotter and hotter, the ships unloaded their cargoes, and men, and horses, guns, and all the impedimenta of modern war were disgorged on to the quay. Unfortunately, one of the 5" howitzers of our sister battery, the 10th, slipped from the slings as it was being hoisted over the side of the ship, high up in the air. It crashed on to the quay, and two gunners, who were waiting below to man-handle the guns, were caught and slightly hurt by it. Thus casualties soon commenced'. (Shaw and Gee, 1920 'A Record of D245' Renwick, Otley, p.22).

Not sure this is the same man, he isn't recorded as dying from this injury and I can't seem to find him in CWGC. Am I right with this?

Just wondering if Burley War Memorial records all who served, rather than those who died?

[mcnab]

" Their name liveth for evermore"

Reads the memorial, I think it records those that died in the war, that had an association with Burley. I say 'association' because being born and bred in Burley doesn't seem to have been necessary.

Haven't found anything about Pte H Ledger, thanks for that info, it might have been him, and he could have survived that mishap only to die in France?

[Foston]

Simon

I am only researching local men but thanks for the offer.

As I said I have a copy of the battalion history which states they stationed in Thiepval Wood continuously from 8/7/16 - 19/8/16 and for most of that period they occupied the front line on the extreme left next to the River Ancre. I can supply copies of the relevant pages off forum if they would be useful to you.

Regards

Rob

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[Foston]

I am looking for information on the 16th Bn West Yorkshire Regiment in connection with a family member who died on the Somme and whose deatils are on the Thiepval Memorial. Can you tell me who you wrote to to get the Regiment details that you were interested in?

Many thanks for any help you can give.

[Simon R]

'Haven't found anything about Pte H Ledger, thanks for that info, it might have been him, and he could have survived that mishap only to die in France?'

Quite possible, but can you find him in CWGC/SDGW? I'm not sure which one he is, if any, they aren't RFA at any rate, but I may be wrong.

Away from files right now, but if Barker also appears on memorial, we might assume both died during this incident. May well have been pretty well squashed - the Otley btys. first casualty occured in Doncaster when a gun limber caught Gnr. Lawson whilst going at speed round a corner - flipping dangerous things gun carriages if you happen to get in their way!

[Simon R]

In parenthesis, the National Archives will be the main source for war diaries produced by regts. 14-18. You may also find individual soldiers records surviving there too. You should check out the Long, Long Trail from this website for further details. Sorry if this is all old hat, but I know what it's like when you're starting out.

Try posting your relatives details in 'Soldiers' on this site, you will most likely get an excellent response.

The 'battalion history' noted above is Capt. P.G. Bales 1920 who wrote a history of the 4th btn. DWR. so West Riding regt. not West Yorks.

[Simon R]

A few more Burley boys:

Friday 22nd Sept 1916 Ilkley Gazette

'Capt. F. Geoffrey Fison.... wounded.... Kings Royal Rifles... eldest son of Mr Frederick Fison, formerly of Ilkley, was wounded on September 9th and is in hospital. Before the war Capt. Fison resided at Burley and is connected with the firm of Wm. Fison and Co.'

Friday 15th Sept. 1916 Ilkley Gazette

'Burley Killed and Wounded.

Gunner H. Breare of Burley who is in the RGA [Royal Garrison Artillery] is officially reported wounded. Amongst the men in the West Riding Regiment [also known as Duke of Wellingtons regt.] killed in the casualty lists issued on Saturday appears the name of Pte. S. Bentley, Burley in Wharfedale'.

Lots more throughout, a proper survey of papers much needed I think.

[Guest vernon_kell]

Dear All,

I have been researching D battery 245th Brigade RFA (formerly 1/11th Ilkley Howitzers) and just thought I'd go fishing to see if anyone out there had a similar interest in this unit.

In a similar vein, does the ether contain anyone with an interest in 1/4th DWR?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Simon,

My grandfather John Morris (Jack) Robinson was born in Ilkley and served in this unit. My Dad said he always called it the Otley Field Artillery I have no details of him not even his service number. I'd be interested in any information about the unit.

I have been looking at the service numbers of men in the 245th Brigade RFA, but it may be that JM Robinson served in the sister Brigades raised for the 62nd Div. Any idea how I can find Jacks service number..?

Regards

Steve Robinson

[Simon R]

Give me a day or two and I'll get back to you.

D bty. 245th Brigade was formerly the 1/11th Ilkley Battery - D bty. 246th was from Otley, formerly the 1/10th Otley Battery.

A name should be good enough a starting point for me, I've quite a lot of information on bot units. As I say, give me time and I'll get back to you. But don't go away!

[Guest vernon_kell]

Give me a day or two and I'll get back to you.

D bty. 245th Brigade was formerly the 1/11th Ilkley Battery - D bty. 246th was from Otley, formerly the 1/10th Otley Battery.

A name should be good enough a starting point for me, I've quite a lot of information on bot units. As I say, give me time and I'll get back to you. But don't go away!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many thanks, I have a nice photo of Jack taken when he was serving during WW2 in the Pioneer Corps wearing his 1914-15 Star Trio. He also served in the Home Guard before joining up again, serving in the pioneer Corps and later the Military Police. He was born at Ash Grove Ilkley.

[Simon R]

If you want to find out his service number, try the online Medal Index Cards (MICs) which are available from the National Archives website. If you download his card, for £3.50, his number will be on the top right hand corner.

Post 1917 re-numbering, the West Riding Div. had the following series of numbers allotted to it. If you can fit Robinsons number into this sequence, it's a start.

West Riding Division.

1st Brigade (i.e. 245th bde. RFA) 775001-780000

2nd Brigade (i.e. 246th bde. RFA) 780001-785000

3rd Brigade (i.e. 247th bde. RFA) 785001-790000

4th Brigade (i.e. 248th bde. RFA) 790001-795000

Div. Ammo. Col. 795001-800000

This indicates that each bty. should get 1250 numbers - four batterys in each brigade each getting a quarter of the 50000 new numbers allotted to them. In reality, it isn't as neat as all that, but I have been able to relate certain runs of numbers to specific batterys and have found them to sometimes follow an alphabetic pattern e.g.

776157 Cowling

776158 Driver

776160 Frankland

776161 Gaulter

776162 Holmes.... etc.

If I'm right and this pattern holds, then the name Robinson would appear between 776176 and 776180 - so when you download his MIC, let me know if his number is anywhere near that!

This will only work if he did in fact serve with D245 of course. It's a long shot really but it would be fantastic if I could really predict someones number from their name. It's a test - let's see if it works.

[Simon R]

p.s. he's not on the nominal roll for the Ilkley bty. (1/11th), but you probably knew that.

I'll have a better look tonight.

[Simon R]

And a brief perusal of the MICS shows a completely different number to the one predicted.... there are two JM Robinsons, one's a BQMS and the others a driver, 1141, i.e. pre 1917 numbering. Perhaps if we downloaded both, we'd find out which he is.

So much for that theory.

[Guest vernon_kell]

And a brief perusal of the MICS shows a completely different number to the one predicted.... there are two JM Robinsons, one's a BQMS and the others a driver, 1141, i.e. pre 1917 numbering. Perhaps if we downloaded both, we'd find out which he is.

So much for that theory.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for all that info...much appreciated. I have seen the two JM Robinsons mentioned above. I know he was not a BQMS but he also many be just logged as J Robinson, Or John Robinson, shame Robinson is such a common name...!

He may have served in another battery but coming from Ilkley I would expect D245. I will try the 776176 and 776180 sequence and see what this brings up. Have you any info on the 2nd line units numbers...?

I have found the MIC's very interesting when putting together runs of numbers, I use Excel and cross ref with the CWGC, how do you do it...?

If you come across John M (Jack) Robinson in the Ilkley Gazette please let me know.

Thanks again for your help.

Steve Robinson

[Guest vernon_kell]

Re: D245 service numbers - I was trying to correlate pre-1917 numbers with post 1917 numbers so I simply put all post 17 numbers in ascending order next to a column of pre 1917 nos. And found that the two don't correlate in any way! Basic data from casualty lists and nominal roll of 'A history of D245'.

2nd line numbers are a mystery to me, it's an area I really need to investigate, but haven't as yet.

Robinson refs. I have found elsewhere:

H. Robinson  O/OC/ph/5 and 26: 1/10th old comrades photo album

Dr. G. Robinson  Nominal roll for 1/11th as recorded in 'A History of D245'

Tptr. K.H. Robinson Nominal roll for 1/10th as recorded in W&AO post war

Sgt. J. Robinson of West Riding regt. played rugby for Otley.

Dr. J.F. Robinson Nominal roll for 1/10th as recorded in W&AO post war.

n.b. if you've got a photo, I can cross-ref. it with the c.100 photos we have of soldiers from both 1/10th and 1/11th - most unidentified but if you post a likeness of him I should be able to tell you (after much bleary eyed peering at indistinct group photos) whether we've got him or not. This could be quite hard and time consuming, but it's worth a shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many thanks for this info, interesting to see other Robinsons, Jacks father was called James but will have been too old to serve in WW1. Jack did have an uncle James who would have bee about 34 in 1914, of him I know nothing. I have attached a photo of Jack not brilliant I'm afraid but may be of use.

Regards

Steve R