SDWG look up please

[All We Have Is Now]

13 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

The whole panel won’t need to be replaced, just Freds  name. 

How about Arthurs headstone as his name is Arthur Taroni yet the head stone says torina.

 

 

[All We Have Is Now]

6 minutes ago, All We Have Is Now said:

Thank you so much.

 

what is WFA ?

 

and how did you find this?

what does DDE 403 stand for ? 
 

It sure is a shame that there is no report on how he was accidentally killed. I know hos brother worked in the tunnels and an explosion happened, I always thought it was Fred that was accidentally killed.

 

could this also be a mistake ? Although the dates are correct perhaps they filled in the wrong card?

Oh my,

 

that is incredible. Thank you so much.

 

what does 1OR stand for ?

So was arthur in the tunnels also?

[All We Have Is Now]

I am also trying to find any info for Second Lietenant Reginald Oughton died 11/10/18

 

any pointers or advice would be amazing.

[Jim Strawbridge]

1 hour ago, All We Have Is Now said:

what is WFA ?

what does 1OR stand for ?

WFA = Western Front Association    (https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/)

1OR = one other rank.  Amongst other things, war diaries records daily happenings. When an officer is killed he is normally mentioned by name. Other ranks were recorded as numbers. In this context the diary records that one other rank was wounded and another accidently killed.

As to the correct name of the memorial plaque I hope that no offence was given or taken. We are all on a learning curve. You have dipped your toe into WW1 history. Be careful as it is addictive !!!

[Michelle Young]

You will have to send an email to the CWGC about the names being incorrect. They will probably need proof like either birth or death certificates I’d imagine.
 

You might have noticed that a few names had been replaced on the walls at Le Touret, the cost of replacing a whole panel is huge, and panels are only replaced when they are illegible, so it could be years. The nature of Le Touret, bring enclosed cloisters means that the panels aren’t really exposed to the elements.

I’ve also noticed recently, some headstones with little bits of names replaced with new stone, where a name was incorrect on the original. 

I think that @Promenadebook is now out of print, only he will be able to let you know. There’s a copy on Amazon for a whopping £223! 

[Promenade]

Hello,

As Michelle says the book is out of print and has been out of print for over 20 years; when submitted to the printers they accidentally destroyed everything original photos/text/research notes (which they insisted on having for some reason) immediately after it was printed, allegedly after a clerk pulled the wrong box for destruction. The print run was only 500 copies and it was sold more or less for cost price as a memorial to the men and woman contained in its pages - people who were commemorated on the town WW1 war memorials and who, in the 1980's, had more or less fallen out of the Cheltenham collective consciousness. I have been told that it is one of the most photocopied books in Cheltenham library!

Over the years there have been a number of requests to reprint but to be honest to print a 668p A4 book, either in hard copy, as was the original, or soft copy, is cost prohibitive. Not only that, the release of, and easy internet access to, a whole new raft of information would make the book even larger!

I would say that the Amazon listed price is somewhat speculative - copies do come up for sale every now and then but you have to keep your eyes peeled.

Promenade

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

8 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

They will probably need proof like either birth or death certificates I’d imagine.
 

Yes, the name needs to be nailed down first.
A quick glance doesn't reveal any Arthur or Fred Taroni/Tarone born in Cheltenham.
One Arthur Taroni (Arthur Frederick actually) born in Tynemouth 1884, no Freds anywhere, no Arthur or Fred Tarone ever, anywhere, and no Torina ever, anywhere..

Frederick (b.1888 Cheltenham) is in Rhondda in 1911, and Arthur (b.1892 Cheltenham) are in Rhondda and Cheltenham respectively in 1911, but they're eluding me in 1901 so far. Not looked at 1891.

In any case, I believe CWGC commemorate the soldier by the name under which they served( even if that was wrong or an alias) so it depends what contemporary records exist and whether compelling evidence can be found to correct any inaccuracies.

There's a lot of work ahead for you.

Good luck!

 

Edit: Fred, aged 5 (b. Cheltenham), with father Edwin and mother Ann in Cheltenham in 1891

Edited 5 August , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Births Dec 1892   (>99%)
Troni	Arthur Henry		Cheltenham	6a	395

Births Jun 1885   (>99%)
Tronei	Frederick		Cheltenham	6a	444

[RaySearching]

Steve

I have transcribed a couple of days of the 1st Dorsets war diary for the period in question

24-28 August 16

 Battalion in billets at Le Quesnoy

29th Aug

Battalion relieves the 15th H.L.I in Cuinchy right sub sector  (Boyau 17 to Boyau 31

Leaving Le Quesoy at   1.00 Pm at platoon intervals of 3 minutes relief completed at 4.45

Situation quiet  slight artillery activity on our back

30th Aug

Owing to very bad weather conditions the night was occupied in the evacuation of water And mud from the trenches and dugouts, some trenches waste deep ,

Saps in very bad condition

CROMPTON SAP fell in but was cleaned 1 OR wounded 1 accidentally killed

Situation unusually quiet owing to the weather slight activity on the part of our artillery

31st Aug

Trenches both communication and front line still in very bad condition owing to more rain falling

The left company are obliged to use some of the trenches of the Bn on the left of communication between Coy H2 and front line all saps are in very bad condition Compton and South Midnight have been evacuated

The war diary indicates or suggests that Arthur was killed when a trench wall collapsed  due to heavy rain and water

 

Hope this helps regards Ray

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

20 hours ago, All We Have Is Now said:

So was arthur in the tunnels also?

I was just starting to type, in answer to the above, that my reading of the extract from the War Diary quoted by Ray Searching was that Arthur was killed as a result of the collapse of Crompton Sap (a sap being, I understand, a dead end branch trench, sometimes covered, so effectively a tunnel, protruding in the direction of the enemy front line) rather than because of any tunnelling activity, when Ray posted the additional extracts from the War Diary above, drawing the same conclusion.

By the way, you can read the War Diary by downloading it for free (if you register with the National Archives) on this link https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353760. for the period covering his death, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352277  for December 1915 and earlier. You could also look at what the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry were doing during his period with them. the War Diaries won't mention Arthur by name, but will give you an idea of what the unit was doing during his time with them.

My grandfather was in the Cuinchy area in late 1917, and describes it thus:

No Man’s Land with its almost continuous line of craters, full of stagnant, green, stinking water, with sides of crumbling earth and slimy mud, real death traps for night patrols. We and the Boche each dug sap heads on the lips of these craters and in many cases each was within range of the other bombs or hand grenades. These saps were cheerless kind of spots for posts to keep the long watches. The line itself was a succession of salient and re-entrants. The right or Canal sub-sector was the better sector – this included the Canal and South of it.  ... On the contrary the Givenchy Sector (N of the Canal) the land was much lower and the water level only a few feet below the ground level, Princess Island for example was like living in mud; further the trenches were mainly sandbag breastworks, duckboards had vanished, it was as much as anyone could do to keep his neck above water, so to speak, to say nothing of developing the offensive spirit and mastery of No Man’s Land.

There would have been more craters by 1917 than in 1916, but the above description nevertheless captures something of the dangers that would have been present in August 1916 which led to Arthur's death.

Someone on this site may even be able to point you in the direction of a trench map which would show the exact position of Crompton Sap.

20 hours ago, All We Have Is Now said:

I am also trying to find any info for Second Lietenant Reginald Oughton died 11/10/18

 

You might be best to start a new thread about 2nd Lieutenant Oughton, but he is commemorated on the CWGC site on this link https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/308169/reginald-oughton/ , and again you can see what his unit was doing by looking at the War Diary of the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment, 6th Battalion, on the National Archives'site. There is more chance of a 2nd Lieutenant being mentioned by name that a Private. 

[RaySearching]

9 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Frederick (b.1888 Cheltenham) is in Rhondda in 1911, and Arthur (b.1892 Cheltenham) are in Rhondda and Cheltenham respectively in 1911, but they're eluding me in 1901 so far.

Here you are Dai 1901

[All We Have Is Now]

11 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes, the name needs to be nailed down first.
A quick glance doesn't reveal any Arthur or Fred Taroni/Tarone born in Cheltenham.
One Arthur Taroni (Arthur Frederick actually) born in Tynemouth 1884, no Freds anywhere, no Arthur or Fred Tarone ever, anywhere, and no Torina ever, anywhere..

Frederick (b.1888 Cheltenham) is in Rhondda in 1911, and Arthur (b.1892 Cheltenham) are in Rhondda and Cheltenham respectively in 1911, but they're eluding me in 1901 so far. Not looked at 1891.

In any case, I believe CWGC commemorate the soldier by the name under which they served( even if that was wrong or an alias) so it depends what contemporary records exist and whether compelling evidence can be found to correct any inaccuracies.

There's a lot of work ahead for you.

Good luck!

 

Edit: Fred, aged 5 (b. Cheltenham), with father Edwin and mother Ann in Cheltenham in 1891

The commemorative plaque is stamped Taroni, I shall ask my father to see if we have his birth certificate or death certificate. 
 

Edwin was the watchmaker from Italy.  
 

thank you all so much, I can see how addictive this will become. 
 

i shall keep you all posted

[All We Have Is Now]

2 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Steve

I have transcribed a couple of days of the 1st Dorsets war diary for the period in question

24-28 August 16

 Battalion in billets at Le Quesnoy

29th Aug

Battalion relieves the 15th H.L.I in Cuinchy right sub sector  (Boyau 17 to Boyau 31

Leaving Le Quesoy at   1.00 Pm at platoon intervals of 3 minutes relief completed at 4.45

Situation quiet  slight artillery activity on our back

30th Aug

Owing to very bad weather conditions the night was occupied in the evacuation of water And mud from the trenches and dugouts, some trenches waste deep ,

Saps in very bad condition

CROMPTON SAP fell in but was cleaned 1 OR wounded 1 accidentally killed

Situation unusually quiet owing to the weather slight activity on the part of our artillery

31st Aug

Trenches both communication and front line still in very bad condition owing to more rain falling

The left company are obliged to use some of the trenches of the Bn on the left of communication between Coy H2 and front line all saps are in very bad condition Compton and South Midnight have been evacuated

The war diary indicates or suggests that Arthur was killed when a trench wall collapsed  due to heavy rain and water

 

Hope this helps regards Ray

Ray, you are a diamond. 
 

thank you… 

 

[All We Have Is Now]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

Here you are Dai 1901

🙏

1 hour ago, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I was just starting to type, in answer to the above, that my reading of the extract from the War Diary quoted by Ray Searching was that Arthur was killed as a result of the collapse of Crompton Sap (a sap being, I understand, a dead end branch trench, sometimes covered, so effectively a tunnel, protruding in the direction of the enemy front line) rather than because of any tunnelling activity, when Ray posted the additional extracts from the War Diary above, drawing the same conclusion.

By the way, you can read the War Diary by downloading it for free (if you register with the National Archives) on this link https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353760. for the period covering his death, https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352277  for December 1915 and earlier. You could also look at what the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry were doing during his period with them. the War Diaries won't mention Arthur by name, but will give you an idea of what the unit was doing during his time with them.

My grandfather was in the Cuinchy area in late 1917, and describes it thus:

No Man’s Land with its almost continuous line of craters, full of stagnant, green, stinking water, with sides of crumbling earth and slimy mud, real death traps for night patrols. We and the Boche each dug sap heads on the lips of these craters and in many cases each was within range of the other bombs or hand grenades. These saps were cheerless kind of spots for posts to keep the long watches. The line itself was a succession of salient and re-entrants. The right or Canal sub-sector was the better sector – this included the Canal and South of it.  ... On the contrary the Givenchy Sector (N of the Canal) the land was much lower and the water level only a few feet below the ground level, Princess Island for example was like living in mud; further the trenches were mainly sandbag breastworks, duckboards had vanished, it was as much as anyone could do to keep his neck above water, so to speak, to say nothing of developing the offensive spirit and mastery of No Man’s Land.

There would have been more craters by 1917 than in 1916, but the above description nevertheless captures something of the dangers that would have been present in August 1916 which led to Arthur's death.

Someone on this site may even be able to point you in the direction of a trench map which would show the exact position of Crompton Sap.

You might be best to start a new thread about 2nd Lieutenant Oughton, but he is commemorated on the CWGC site on this link https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/308169/reginald-oughton/ , and again you can see what his unit was doing by looking at the War Diary of the Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment, 6th Battalion, on the National Archives'site. There is more chance of a 2nd Lieutenant being mentioned by name that a Private. 

I do not even know where to begin, it is so wonderful that you have taken the time to help me. 
 

everyone on this thread has been fantastic. 
 

Its great to know that there are genuine people still out their.

Thank you so much. 
 

 

[RaySearching]

Steve

I will have a look at Frederick when time permits

 

Ray

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

@All We Have Is Now

You can see how difficult it is going to be to convince the CWGC to change the surnames on the headstones.

We have Taroni, Tarone, Taronie, Troni, Tronei, Torina and Farone so far on official records.

Arthur's MIC has Tarone, Fred's has Farone, as does SDGW.

I can only suggest you write to the CWGC , explaining the situation of the name variants and see what they say.

Edited 6 August , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[RaySearching]

Frederick Taronie

170 Tunnelling Coy Royal Engineers War diary entries 

June 3rd 1915 4.30 am

Germans blew up a big mine 40x  from our trenches in front of  SEYMOUR STREET

Galley in which 6 men were working blown in also one killed

Gallery 8 was also affected trench badly damaged   (see appendix b)

Having found appendix B

Although the handwriting is feint , I read it as 6 men were buried  in sap 9   there is  ????   ???? small chance of any of them being alive

Frederick was the husband of   Florence Mary May “Taronie” (nee Tomlin) the couple married in the Jan-March Qtr of 1913  

Frederick has a WFA Pension Card

The brothers Arthur and Frederick were both born in Cheltenham (as Dai’s post above)

The brothers father Edwin “Taroni”was born in Bristol his birth registered in the July –Sept Qtr of 1841 In Clifton Bristol

Edwin can be found on the 1851 Wales census aged 9 residing with his parents John “Taroni” a jeweller  born Italy and Jane “Taroni” born Monmouth Llanarth

(John may or may not have been his original Italian first name!)

Whilst carrying out genealogy research of this nature one often comes across a skeleton in the cupboard

Edwin “Tarony” appears to have been a very naughty boy 

Quarter Sessions Gloucester 3 Jan 1882

 

That should get you going with your family research

Regards Ray

Edited 6 August , 2022 by RaySearching
typo

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

11 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

We have Taroni, Tarone, Taronie, Troni, Tronei, Torina and Farone so far on official records.

 

2 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Edwin “Tarony” appears to have been a very naughty boy 

8

[All We Have Is Now]

On 06/08/2022 at 10:39, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

@All We Have Is Now

You can see how difficult it is going to be to convince the CWGC to change the surnames on the headstones.

We have Taroni, Tarone, Taronie, Troni, Tronei, Torina and Farone so far on official records.

Arthur's MIC has Tarone, Fred's has Farone, as does SDGW.

I can only suggest you write to the CWGC , explaining the situation of the name variants and see what they say.

It sure is, I shall write a letter and see if we have any options. 
 

Thank you so much

[All We Have Is Now]

On 06/08/2022 at 19:55, RaySearching said:

Frederick Taronie

170 Tunnelling Coy Royal Engineers War diary entries 

June 3rd 1915 4.30 am

Germans blew up a big mine 40x  from our trenches in front of  SEYMOUR STREET

Galley in which 6 men were working blown in also one killed

Gallery 8 was also affected trench badly damaged   (see appendix b)

Having found appendix B

Although the handwriting is feint , I read it as 6 men were buried  in sap 9   there is  ????   ???? small chance of any of them being alive

Frederick was the husband of   Florence Mary May “Taronie” (nee Tomlin) the couple married in the Jan-March Qtr of 1913  

Frederick has a WFA Pension Card

The brothers Arthur and Frederick were both born in Cheltenham (as Dai’s post above)

The brothers father Edwin “Taroni”was born in Bristol his birth registered in the July –Sept Qtr of 1841 In Clifton Bristol

Edwin can be found on the 1851 Wales census aged 9 residing with his parents John “Taroni” a jeweller  born Italy and Jane “Taroni” born Monmouth Llanarth

(John may or may not have been his original Italian first name!)

Whilst carrying out genealogy research of this nature one often comes across a skeleton in the cupboard

Edwin “Tarony” appears to have been a very naughty boy 

Quarter Sessions Gloucester 3 Jan 1882

 

That should get you going with your family research

Regards Ray

Ray, 

 

I don’t even know where to begin. 
 

🤣 He seemed a little scoundrel 👀

So all these years my grandma has been barking up the wrong tree.
 

My only regret is not finding this sooner and obtaining all your help so I could of told my Grandma.
 

John & Jane are very English names 🤦🏻 Who knows, I may actually find the real names. At least we have Taroni now 🤣
 

I don’t understand how you can find all this…

I shall do some digging and keep everyone posted.  

So John Taroni just says Italy and his wife Jane was born Monmouth Llanarth

I did find this but unsure if it fits in anywhere.

[RaySearching]

Freds marraige 

Note his father Edwin is shown as deceased

 

Looks like his father had an accomplice  during his indescretion

Looks like Henry Tyler (entry above) had a penchant for rabbits 

 

Ray

[All We Have Is Now]

3 hours ago, RaySearching said:

Freds marraige 

Note his father Edwin is shown as deceased

 

Looks like his father had an accomplice  during his indescretion

Looks like Henry Tyler (entry above) had a penchant for rabbits 

 

Ray

I wonder how he died… 

 

🤣🤣 Henry Rabbit Tyler. 
 

3 months in prison for stealing rabbits. 🤣

do we think Edwin was perhaps a pawn broker type chap taking peoples money or perhaps selling fake jewellery 🤷🏼‍♂️
 

 

[RaySearching]

19 minutes ago, All We Have Is Now said:

I wonder how he died… 

The records  indicate Edwin did not die prior to Freds wedding in 1913  he lied for some reason

Burial register

 address corresponds   with the 1911 census 

You could obtain his death cirt from the GRO if you wished

Ray

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 09/08/2022 at 20:22, RaySearching said:

9!

Edited 15 August , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[RaySearching]

Edwin Taroni and Long again

South Wales Daily News 22nd Dec 1881

 

If you think Edwin was a naughty boy you should check out

Fredericks record in the Cheltenam Chronicle

Ray