Hospitalised at Epsom War Hospital 1917

[Martin Perry]

My grandfather gave the Epsom War Hospital as his address when he married in Feb 1917. I am trying to discover when he received his injuries (lost and eye and baynet wounds to stomach) so that I can "accurately" place his whereabouts from 1st Oct 1914 (from medal card).

Does anyone know if I am able to find out more from any records which might have been kept by the hospital etc please?

Many thanks

Martin

[Hambo]

Martin

I'm about to shove off on holiday for a couple of weeks so I'm no help but it might be worth posting his unit and what you DO have on him to help the forum find him

Good luck with the search

Hambo

[Martin Perry]

Cheers Hambo

He's John Frederick Perry; service number L/10582; served with 1st Battalion Queens West Surrey Regiment.

Not much else to say really - would really appreciate any help possible please!

Have a lovely couple of weeks holiday Hambo!

Kind regards

Martin

[Hambo]

Martin

Given that you're trying to get the movements of the 1st Battalion, for two and a half years, you could do a lot worse than buy a copy of the history of the Regiment which is very comprensive and is avaliable from Naval and Military Press

That's your best bet

Hambo

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Martin

On the outbreak of war a new wing at the Grandstand on the racecourse was requisitioned as a hospital. Initially most of the men were injured but not bedridden: for the Spring Meeting of 1915 (the last races held on the Downs for the duration of hostilities) they were helped out onto free seats. Later more acute patients arrived.

Dave

[Martin Perry]

Hambo

Yes, I've just received it and it does give a lot of detail. Also trawled through the Battalion war diaries to give me more depth of where the Battalion were etc - really interesting reading, but I could do with understanding more about his wounding to pin down when he exited the war and returned to England.

Thats why I was hoping that there was perhaps a way of looking at hospital records at Epsom - would you know if any exist, and if so where I could lay my hands on them? In an ideal world I was then hoping to focus in on a particular battle, and even potentially identify a clearing station (probably hoping for too much I know, but I'm aiming high!!)

Cheers

Martin

[Martin Perry]

Martin

On the outbreak of war a new wing at the Grandstand on the racecourse was requisitioned as a hospital. Initially most of the men were injured but not bedridden: for the Spring Meeting of 1915 (the last races held on the Downs for the duration of hostilities) they were helped out onto free seats. Later more acute patients arrived.

Dave

Morning Dave - thanks for the info - do you know if any records were made that still exist of men who were cared for there?

Martin

[montbrehain]

not really much help on your topic , but thought these photos taken at epsom may be of interest ?

[Martin Perry]

Cheers

Any idea of the date of these please?

Martin

[montbrehain]

Allthough I got these cards years and countries apart ! I feel they are taken by the same photgrapher at the same session. Only 1 (the 1st) has postmark dated 4pm 16 oct 1915. from this date we can safely assume that the Australian soldiers in these photos were wounded and sick from Gallipoli ?

[Martin Perry]

Nice to have a visual - am researching for both parents who know almost zero about their respective fathers actions during the war. Am planning to take them both (80 and 75 years old) over to France shortly just to visit some of the places where their parents saw action. Have been able, with this forums help , and a lot of time at Kew (!), to narrow down the dates that they were in the theatre pretty well and to build a reasonably clear..ish (!) picture of things.

My father has no idea about the Epsom connection, so these photos will be great just to give him a bit of a visual anchor if you know what I mean? I discovered the Hospital piece from his marriage certificate - the Epsom War Hospital was used as his address on 1st February 1917!

Thanks again

Martin

[alliekiwi]

Only 1 (the 1st) has postmark dated 4pm 16 oct 1915. from this date we can safely assume that the Australian soldiers in these photos were wounded and sick from Gallipoli ?

From the flags they're sitting above, I'd say you could say 'Australians and New Zealanders'.

The third photo with the kangaroo is great. What's the middle one of? Hard to tell at that size.

Allie

[montbrehain]

Yes you could say that, but ive checked these photos with a loup and cant see any kiwi,s allthough many in the photos were british regiments. I,m led to believe that every hut had its own mosaic ? the 1st 1 says "empire all" under the flags. the 2nd shows a nurse taking a patients pulse ! the third also has a map of Australia underneath. can post them bigger if theres any interest ? bye the way alliekiwi if thats you in the avatar ? you,ve got my vote for best photo !!! And if its your mrs , you,ve still got my vote haha

[Sue Light]

Martin

It is very unlikely that any patient records survive for the hospital - it's rare for records of any temporary war hospitals to remain. A service record would probably be the best bet, but you might have checked for that already at Kew. If so, did you check both WO363, all the separate runs of WO364, and the pension records, as it seems likely that he received a pension.

If any records of the hospital survive, they will probably be at the Surrey History Centre:

Surrey History Centre

Sue

[alliekiwi]

Yup, the photo is me. It doesn't show up as an avatar that I can see?

Larger versions of those postcards/photos would be great.

Ooh, interesting link, Sue. I'll certainly be scouring that site!

Allie

[BJanman]

Martin

On entry into a medical unit each patient was entered onto the 'Admission and Discharge Register' (A & D Book) so that his journey could be traced. At the end of the war, these books (200 tonnes of them) were taken over by the , then, Ministry of Pensions in order to substantiate war claims, and were destroyed by them in the 1930's. Having said that I have heard of some that were not destroyed, which I believe but am not 100% sure, are held at the National Archive.

Do you know if your grandfather was wounded in France? I may be able to trace him as passing through one of the General hosptials out there.

Barbara

[Sue Light]

Further to Barbara's comment about Admission and Discharge Registers - this is a link to a list of surviving A&D registers at The National Archives that I compiled.

I've posted it before, but just in case it might be of use to anybody else:

Sue

MH106_Forum.doc

[ianw]

I think it quite likely that Epsom General Hospital on the Dorking Rd was also operating at this time in addition to any temporary sites. There are quite a number of WW1 burials in Epsom Cemetery and a memorial which includes Indian cremation locations. These are commemorated by little brass numbered covers that are now often buried in the grass of the memorial surrounds .

I live quite close by.

[Martin Perry]

Hi Sue

Sorry to sound stupid, but looking at the list, as there is no mention of the Queens West Surrey's, I can presumably assume that the medical records do not exist? On the other hand, is it possible that one of the other records listed (clearing stations etc) might hold some information? If so, how would I go about finding out which to look at????

p.s. this research is getting more complex the further I go into it .....something you all know, and will no doubt be smiling at!!

Thanks

Martin

[Martin Perry]

I think it quite likely that Epsom General Hospital on the Dorking Rd was also operating at this time in addition to any temporary sites. There are quite a number of burials in Epsom Cemetery and a memorial which includes Indian cremation locations. I live quite close by.

Hi Ian - the marriage certificate of 1st Feb 1917 gave the address as Horton County of London War Hospital, Epsom. I assume that these were 2 different hospitals ?

Cheers

Martin

[BJanman]

Thanks Sue

I have French registers, not all complete, that list the dates, the names, the Regiments and the age of soldiers who where admitted. I will check to see if they are the same records.

Barbara

[Martin Perry]

Martin

On entry into a medical unit each patient was entered onto the 'Admission and Discharge Register' (A & D Book) so that his journey could be traced. At the end of the war, these books (200 tonnes of them) were taken over by the , then, Ministry of Pensions in order to substantiate war claims, and were destroyed by them in the 1930's. Having said that I have heard of some that were not destroyed, which I believe but am not 100% sure, are held at the National Archive.

Do you know if your grandfather was wounded in France? I may be able to trace him as passing through one of the General hosptials out there.

Barbara

Hi Barbara

Yes, Grandfather was wounded in France, although I'm not sure where. I'm assuming that he received his wounds at the tail end of 1916 (he lost an eye and received bayonet wounds to his stomach) as he was married 1st Feb 1917 at Epsom. His battalion war diaries put him:

Aug 1916 - Albert; Becordel; Mametz; Deville WoodMirvaux

Sept 1916 - Halloy; Gommecourt;

Oct 1916 - Brevillers; Bernafay Wood

Nov 1916 - Les Boeufs; Liercourt

Dec 1916 - Rancourt; Maurepas;

If you could help in any way, it would be wonderful, thank you.

Details: John Frederick Perry Service number L/ 10582; 1st Battalion Queens West Surrey.

Thanks again

Martin

[Sue Light]

Martin

The point at which it gets complex is when you really start learning

The medical records that were retained form only a tiny sample of what was there originally - not more than 2%. The records were kept just so we all know what we are missing! But the Regiments listed are the only ones that survive. However, the fact that you have now mentioned Horton Hospital might be more hopeful.

If you have a look at the Hospitals Database here:

Hospital Records Database

And search for 'Epsom,' the link for Horton Hospital shows that admission and discharge registers are held at the London Metropolitan Archives for the whole period from 1902 - 1986. I really don't know whether this will include the men admitted during the war, as opposed to the mentally ill admitted at other times, but it might be worth following up. You'll find the link to the LMA on the site as well.

Sue

[ianw]

Horton Hospital was outside Epsom and has now been re-developed for housing , I think. It certainly was a mental hospital latterly. Perhaps Epsom General's site was not a hospital during the Great War.

[Martin Perry]

Martin

The point at which it gets complex is when you really start learning

The medical records that were retained form only a tiny sample of what was there originally - not more than 2%. The records were kept just so we all know what we are missing! But the Regiments listed are the only ones that survive. However, the fact that you have now mentioned Horton Hospital might be more hopeful.

If you have a look at the Hospitals Database here:

Hospital Records Database

And search for 'Epsom,' the link for Horton Hospital shows that admission and discharge registers are held at the London Metropolitan Archives for the whole period from 1902 - 1986. I really don't know whether this will include the men admitted during the war, as opposed to the mentally ill admitted at other times, but it might be worth following up. You'll find the link to the LMA on the site as well.

Sue

Wow, what a lead! Many thanks Sue - I have contacted the LMA and will wait for a (hopefully positive) response.

As you say, it seems to distinguish the hospitals useage from Horton Asylum (1902-1915) ;Horton War Hospital (1915-1918) ; Horton Mental Hospital (1918-1937) and says it has the A & D records for the whole period (doesn't seem to infer that there is a gap..!) so I'm keeping fingers crossed !

Thanks again.

Martin