Last Stands

[David_Bluestein]

Hi Terry,

There were at least 6 from the 24th:

Pte. J. Bickley 1/24th

Pte. H. Grant 1/24th (Rocket Battery)

Pte. D. Johnson 1/24th (Rocket Battery)

Pte. T. Trainer 1/24th (Rocket Battery)

Pte. J. Williams 1/24th (Col Glyn's Groom)

Pte. E. Wilson 1/24th (Band)

(The above named would have worn red.)

The book 'The Silver Wreath' By. Norman Holme is regarded as the definitve work on the 24th, recording all members who fought at both Isandlwana and Rorkes Drift with assorted details for each; including the detailed statements of above.

The following is thought to be a fairly accurate list of all survivors:

3 ORs 1/24th

3 ORs 1/24th att Rocket battery

1 officer RA

9 ORs RA

1 OR RA Rocket battery

1 OR possible survivor RA

4 1/24th ORs MI

6 other regts ORs MI

4 Special service officers

1 possible Officer ACTD

7 Carbineers

9 NMP

7 NMR

5 BBG

5 NNH officers

4 1/1st NNC officers

1 NCO 1/1st NNC

3 offcers 3rd Regt NNC

3 NCOs 3rd Regt NNC

1 NNPC officer

4 civilian attachments ACTD

1 civilian attachment to Staff No 3 col

TOTAL

81 definites 2 possibles

[john w.]

when the 24th were camped where they were did they expect an attack? did they expect it with such force? and with so many numbers?

The prog did question the value placed on the number of VCs awarded, and linked that to a poltical decision to dilute the fact that a group of 'savages' actually kicked the British Army into touch. Including the two for saving the colours when they were actually routed and in the river....

As for revisionist... thats a negative tag given by anyone who looks again at an historical event and challenges what really happened, and isnt really supposed to be juxtaposed with guilty....

John

[David_Bluestein]

The prog did question the value placed on the number of VCs awarded, .............. Including the two for saving the colours when they were actually routed and in the river....

Lieut. Melvill may have been ordered to leave the field of Isandlwana with the Queen's Colour of the 1st/24th. But, Lieut. Coghill, who had a previously injured knee, appears to have left the battlefield earlier. As he had already crossed the Buffalo River, when Melvill lost the Colour in river.

What cannot be disputed are the facts: Teignmouth Melvill DID attempt to prevent the loss of the Queen's Colour from falling into the hands of the Zulu's. A number of eye-witnesses record that fact including Horace Smith-Dorrien. Coghill did return to the water in an effort to rescue Melvill, which fits in with the actions described in the Supplement to The London Gazette of 2nd May, 1879.

[ttd0]

Just wondering how the survivours managed to survive. Were they not in the actual 'firing line' and managed to get away from the camp. I should now this as the 24th are (or before they were merged) my local Regiment.

Tim

[Broznitsky]

At the battle of the little Big Horn who spoke to the Indians?

The "story" of the Last Stand at Little Big Horn was a combination of interviews with the Sioux attackers; interviews with the Cavalry Indian scouts who left before the real fighting started; the discovery and burial of the Cavalry bodies; and interviews with Cavalry officers and troopers from other units who "observed" what happened from afar, reporting dust clouds and sounds of gunfire. This mix was then "spun" by the newspapers of the day.

The archaeological work in the 1980's seems to confirm much of what the Sioux told back in the 1870's - isolated pockets and loners of Cavalry being quickly chopped down but a couple of larger clumps of Cavalry who resisted for longer periods of time.

Peter (am I off-topic?)

[Myrtle]

Would Sepoy Khudadad's, of the 129th Baluchis, stand on the 31st October 1914 be considered a last stand, when he kept his machine gun firing while all his comrades were killed and then was bayoneted and left for dead ?

[David_Bluestein]

Just wondering how the survivours managed to survive. Were they not in the actual 'firing line' and managed to get away from the camp. I should now this as the 24th are (or before they were merged) my local Regiment.

Tim

There is probabaly no simple answer to this one, however I have pasted part of a survivor's statement (J.A. Brickhill). Though a very vivid account, the answer to how this soldier survived is still a mystery:

Above the 1st24th camp, I met my poor tent companion, Quartermaster Pullen, who shouted to the running soldiers: "Come on men, rally here! Follow me. Don't be running away like a parcel of women! Let's try and turn their flank.". Turning to me, he said, "Mr Brickhill, do go to Colonel Pulleine and ask him to send us help, as they are out-flanking us here on the right." He went away towards the front of Stony Kopje followed by several of the soldiers. I went round the Volunteer camp into that of the 2nd24th.Men were running away everywhere. I could see no of officers.. I saw one of the field pieces brought to the corner of the camp. The men jumped off and took to their heels.

Simultaneously with this, the only body of soldiers yet visible rose from firing their last shot and joined me in the general flight. Panic was everywhere and no officer to guide, no shelter to fall back to. The only attempt at a stand that I know of, was made by the few that followed the Quartermaster and the Basutos, who had a narrow escape of being cut off at the crest, but who came through past the General's tent shouting to each other and keeping up their fire from a few rocks under Isandhlwana.

I went back to the 1st24th camp to see if I could find my companion, but could not. So, seeing that the Zulus were already stabbing in this camp,as well as the others, I joined the fugitives retreating over the nek, on reaching which I found all communication by the road we had come along cut off by several lines of Zulus running across. They had come along behind Isandhlwana and thus intercepted our retreat. The Zulus' left horn had now come over the ridge south of Stony Kopje. They could have completed the circle, but preferred,I think, leaving this gap so that they might attack us in our flight and bring us to bay.

The Isandhlwana horn edged away more and more to the left and these two kept up a constant cross fire on us. Our flight I shall never forget: no path,no track and boulders everywhere. On were we borne; now into some dry torrent bed; now wending our way amongst some trees of stunted growth so that unless you made the best use of your eyes you were in constant danger of colliding with trees or finding yourself unhorsed at the bottom of the ravine. Our way was strewn with shields, assegais blankets, hats, clothing of all descriptions, guns ammunition belts and addles which horses had managed to kick off, revolvers and belts, and I know not what else. Our stampede was composed of mules with and without pack saddles, oxen and horses in all sorts of equipment, and fleeing men all strangely intermingled; man and beast all apparently impressed with the danger which surrounded us. One riderless horse came alongside of me and I caught it and handed it to a poor soldier who was struggling along on foot. But he had scarcely mounted it before he was knocked off by a Zulu bullet.

How one's heart soon steels itself against pity at such times! I came up with poor Band Sergeant Gamble tottering about amongst the stones."For God's sake give me a lift!" he said.I replied: "My dear fellow it's a case of life and death with me!" Closing my eyes, I put spurs on to my horse and bounded ahead, and that was the last I saw of him. The next I came up with, also a soldier, said "Well I'm pumped! I'm done! The Zulus can just come and stab me if they like." And he quietly sat done on a stone to await his death.

[Tim Birch]

, such as lack of ammunition were forced to eventually retire.

Whilst outlying units undoubtably ran out of ammunition forcing them to retire, there was overall no shortage of ammunition. Many unused boxes of ammunition were found later in the remains of the camp. Stories about there being no wire cutters for the brass bands around the boxes have been largley discounted as a myth.

There has been some recent research that has indicated that the main failing was that Lt Col Pulleine had placed his perimeter too far out. This caused a resupply problem with ammunition being distributed from the QM Stores in the camp. It also meant that that the perimiter was too long and thinly held, allowing no margin for error if gaps occured and it was breached. Initially all went well and the defender's fire was quite capable of beating off the attacks. However a combination of the frequency of the attacks coupled with there being inufficient men (due to the streched perimeter) to form and execute the traditional two ranked volley fire procedure for large sections of the line, the Martini Henrys started to overheat resulting in jams occuring. This proved fatal in that it started to leave wide gaps in the line from which no fire was directed. The Zulus recognised this and started to break through.

The research indicated that on average firing a Martini Henry as rapidly as it could be reloaded reulted in it jamming after 25 rounds. If two rank volley fire had been employed, which a closer perimeter would have permitted for the whole line, there would have been double the time between each rifle being discharged, sufficient for it to cool enough to avoid jamming. Ammunition re-supply would also have been easier with the lines closer to the QM Stores.

Had Pulleine employed a tighter perimeter there is no reason why the outcome would not have been similar to Rorkes Drift, Zulu morale would have suffered from the volume of casuaties inflicted on them, and the attacks beaten off.

Tim

[john w.]

From Tim's last statement it seems that there was a degree of overconfidence in the troops... and as I said before they Zulus were not expected to attack with such determination as they did.

I actually feel that this is not off topic.. for two reasons.. 1 Smith Dorrien was involved and 2 the underlying feeling of supremacy of the British which held on with its commanders some 40 odd years later...

This is the same societal arrogance that said the Titanic was unsinkable

Finally I do feel that this event was spun so well by the Victorians that later politicians seem to have used the similar tactic to justify their actions..

John

[iain mchenry]

I know its not WW1 subject matter, but the most recent last stand the British Army has had with no survivors was on the 24 June 03 at Majar al-Kabir, Iraq with Sgt Hamilton-Jewel of the RMP and his section of 5 men.

Iain

[john w.]

True very true.. and they all did their duty and that pervades this entire thread.. from whatever perspective you take it...

So Iain it is not off thread the underpinning sense of duty is there

John

[Tim Birch]

ISANDLWANA 2002

[Tim Birch]

GRAVE OF LTS. MELVILL AND COGHILL, FUGITIVES DRIFT 2003