Last Stands

[Broznitsky]

In Perrett's "Last Stand" he talks about the Great War, (after discussing the Alamo, Camerone, Little Big Horn, Isandhlwana):

"There were numerous stands by isolated infantry brigades, battalions, companies, and platoons which would in other circumstances have earned them immortality, but so broad was the conflict, so great the national effort involved and so horrendous the overall loss of life, that their details now lie submerged in official archives, half-forgotten folk-memories of a generation now all but gone."

I know from Middlebrook that many British units who reached their objectives on July 1, 1916 had last stands where casualties were 100%, because of failure of reinforements, for example. I'm sure German and French units had many last stands, mostly in defence.

I wonder if the Pals could list last stands that they have encountered in their researches, so we can remember these brave men from all nations. (Just to clarify, I don't mean advancing into Maxim gun fire a la the Newfoundlanders.)

[Tim Birch]

For me one of the bravest Last Stands was that by the remnants of the 16th Highland Light Infantry and the 11th Border who captured Frankfurt Trench, near Beaumont Hamel, during the attack by the 32nd Division on 18 November 1916, became stranded and held out against German counter attacks for a week until the 25th November before a surviving handful was forced to surrender due to lack of ammunition and thirst.

Tim

[David_Bluestein]

During the retreat from Mons...

A battalion of Cheshires round Audregnies, a similar force of Norfolks along the ridge towards Elouges and a gun battery from the Royal Field Artillery in between them were sent to win time for the retreat to take place.

The battalion of Cheshire troops never received the order to pull out, and fought on until early evening, when the two hundred survivors from the original force of a thousand had to surrender.

There was as I recall a famous painting of the Cheshire 'Last Stand'

[Muerrisch]

Are we discussing last stands with survivors [to tell it "how it was"] or without? Without wishing to inject a note of cynicism, last stands without survivors are presumably innocent of post-event spin. An expose of Rorkes Drift will be aired tomorrow [off-period I know] which, if the blurb is to be believed, puts that event into the spun category.

There are stories re. the Retirement from Mons where individuals claimed to be the last survivor of their unit, and were reunited with it, or a fair bit of it.

[David_Bluestein]

Sorry in advance for being 'off' period, I will therefore make this a post very brief: I thought some Pals may find this of interest. The service medal from my collection attributed to:

1875 Pte. James Bull 1/24th Regt. Killed on January 22, 1879 in the very disastrous engagement against the Zulu's at the battle of Isandlwana.

[Terry]

I don't have any example to add here, but I just wanted to say that this is a first class topic for the Pals! I look forward to reading the various contributions.

[John_Hartley]

The phrase "last stand" seems to imply no survivors from a defensive action. This would suggest the Alamo and Little Big Horn (although Indian scouts did escape), but I struggle to think of anything of the same significance in WW1.

If, however, we take a view that "last stand" implies no-one got away, then I'm happy to agree with Tim's offer of the Borders & HLI in 1916. Two men remembered on local memorials were KIA in the Lancs Fusiliers attempt at a rescue on 23 November.

The story of the Cheshires is well into the myth of Mons but is not substantiated by the Regiment's official history. Though the 1st Bn suffered massive casualties that day (killed and taken prisoner), the History indicates the order to retreat was received, but, by then, the Bn had been cut-off. Certainly, it was intended as a defensive "stand" and it worked.

I look forward to seeing Rorke's Drift debunked. As often the case, folk confuse the fiction of the film "Zulu" with the fact. Still a brave action and worthy of the VCs (one of whom is buried in a paupers grave not far from where I live).

So, what can I offer as a last stand. Firstly, the well-documented actions of the 16th Manchesters, 21 March 1918. I'd also offer the action of 1st West Yorkshires of the same day. Another of my memorial researchees, 2nd Lt james Whitworth, was killed that day.

By 2.30, the Battalion and other neighbouring battalions were practically surrounded but they were ordered to hold on to their positions until dusk when a counter attack was planned . At 3pm, Colonel Boyall telephoned Division to state that if reinforcements were not immediately sent, the troops would “fight it out to the last as the situation was hopeless and retirement impossible”. An hour later, he telephoned again to say that the enemy was within 40 yards of his Headquarters. This was the last message from the West Yorkshires. It would seem, however, that neighbouring units heard sounds of fighting for the next three hours but by 7pm all was quiet.

[Terry]

Again off the WW1 topic, but could any of the UK Pals keep us advised on just what form the debunking of Rorke's Drift is offered? I have both "Zulu" and "Zulu Dawn" on videio, and I couldn't even hazard a guess as to how many times my three sons watched it when they were growing up.

[Broznitsky]

Are we discussing last stands with survivors [to tell it "how it was"] or without?

What I was thinking of was 100% killed, or with very few surviving captured/wounded. Perrett's first 3 battles listed above met this criteria, and the actual historical record had to be created from interviews with the victors, or in the case of Little Big Horn, from a major archaeological dig in the 1980's which seemed to confirm much of the known story.

I'm sure it's possible to believe you are the last survivor of your unit where the "fog of war" is thick and you have been cut off or perhaps rendered unconscious for a period of time. Of course there were simple lies told, in all wars.

But keep up with the stories, Pals!!

[Somme1916]

A large portion of the South African BDE, 9th Scottish Div, 22 March 1918 (or was it the 23rd of Mar?) Battle of the Somme. The BDE did not receive the order to withdraw and fought on until they were forced to surrender due to a shortage of ammunition and losses. Losses were so heavy that the BDE commander personally took over a Vickers machine gun and fought until his position was surrounded and the gun's ammunition was exhausted. In my opinion, their stand did a lot to slow the advance of the German right wing during the opening phases of Operation Michael.

Cheers,

Jon

[Chris_Baker]

How about the defence of Travecy Keep on 21-22 March 1918?

[Somme1916]

Also the defense of Racecourse Redoubt, 21 Mar 18, 15th Royal Irish Rifles, 107th BDE, 36th Ulster Div. Forgive me but I don't know how to in put the 'link" like Chris did But of course he'd know how to put in a link to his own web site wouldn't he.

Would someone please else kindly help me out by placing a link to the 21 Mar 18 Racecourse Redoubt fight on the Long Long Trail Web site.

All the best,

Jon

All right then Jon. It's here

[John_Hartley]

Terry - the newspaper suggests that the debunking of Rorkes Drift will be that there was a government spin put on the action (presumably upping the heroism quotient) to deflect from Isandhlwana. You'll remember that, at the end of the film, you see all the VC winners and I bet you thought "I don't remember seeing him do anything". The facts of the action do, in my opinion, tend to support a bit of debunking! Not to detract from it all, of course.

Broz - didnt the results of the archaeology tend to suggest that, rather than there being a "stand" at the Big Horn, the troopers were trying to run away? Perhaps another story of spin to deflect from a defeat of the white man?

OK - enough off-topic for me.

John

[Broznitsky]

John_H, yes, several pockets of men did break and try to escape and were hunted down (probably) quickly, but there was one definite big clump of spent bullets and bits of cavalry metal, where Custer's body was found, that seem to indicate a totally surrounded, no ammo left situation. As his forces had been divided, no doubt it was easy to pick off a group here and there as the Sioux desired.

But you're right, off-topic!

Peter

[jim_davies]

Not sure how this stands up to the standards of a "last stand", from Gallipoli.

The companies of the 5/Norfolks, well known for "vanishing". As has been discussed before on the forum, it's likely that having advanced too far, too fast they were surrounded and overwhelmed. Any survivors seem to have been killed immediately after the action.

I would imagine some of the units along the Sari Bair Ridge in Aug 1915 might also consider their actions "last stands".

Jim

[CROONAERT]

It always makes me wonder how many "last stands" went unrecorded. You know the scenario - in all the chaos, a group get cut off and decide to make a fight of it, none get away and the scene is witnessed by none except the enemy.

A couple of my favourites are the last stands by a unit of French marines against the Bavarian I Corps at Bazeilles near Sedan in September 1870. An event commemorated by the museum of "maison de la derniere cartouche" and in a painting of 1873.

The other is that of Lt.Eric Fisher Wood in the Ardennes in 1944. Neither being WW1.

Dave.

[Tim Birch]

Comment has been made as to whether Isandlwana was a true last stand or just a bloody masacre. It seems that once the perimeter was breached by the Zulus the end was swift.

I have visited the battlefield, and the dead are buried where they were found. The battlefield is littered with individual and clumps of white painted marker stones, interspersed by private memorial stones. The pattern of these show a story, most are random but two patterns stand out. One is a large clump of stones and memorials high up and on a small level area just under the steep crags of the mountain. This is where Colonel Dunford and his men undoubtably made their last stand, probably until their ammunition ran out.

The other pattern is a pathetic trail of white stones leading away from the battlefield to-wards Fugitive's Drift over the Buffalo (Mzinyathi) River which stretches for about a mile from the battlefield. It doesn't take much to picture the desperate and mainly unsuccessful flight of the survivors along this route. No last stands for them, just the terror of being hacked down.

Beyond Fugitive's Drift (about 15 miles from the battlefield) the ground rises and about 2/300 yards above the Buffalo River is the tomb of Lts Melvill and Coghill who were overwhelmed here trying to save the Colours. One wonders if they were also just hacked down in flight or if they turned and made a last stand, as depicted by popular Victorian folklore?

Interestingly Lt H Smith-Dorrien later to become famous for his action in 1914 at Le Cateau as General Smith-Dorrien, was one of the few men to escape alive from Isandlwana.

I await to-night's program with interest.

Tim

[John_Hartley]

Interestingly Lt H Smith-Dorrien later to become famous for his action in 1914 at Le Cateau as General Smith-Dorrien, was one of the few men to escape alive from Isandlwana.

Seeing as Tim has managed to tip this back towards WW1, I'll chip in with a comment about the programme. I found it very light weight. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the two actions will have already known that Rorkes Drift was "hyped up" to deflect from the disaster earlier the same day. Hardly a great revelation.

"Zulu" does, however, remain my favourite film of all time - in spite of its inaccuracies

[Tim Birch]

I found it very light weight. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the two actions will have already known that Rorkes Drift was "hyped up" to deflect from the disaster earlier the same day. Hardly a great revelation.

"Zulu" does, however, remain my favourite film of all time -

I agree with John, a very disappointing programme with nothing new in it. I also agree about the film "Zulu". innacurate but great entertainment, and the scenery is magnificant (although in fact no-where near Rorkes Drift!)

Tim

[Greenwoodman]

The pre-programme publicity was more controversial than the programme itself!!!!

Agree that not much, if anything, new came out of it.

[john w.]

Again.. yep I agree nothing really new, but interesting to note a couple of points...

Politics/ class and the network of who you know pervading the officers.. e.g. Lord Chlemsford being supported by the queen so escapes from being told he was to blame...

The saving of the colours and being awarded the VC...

On more serious issue though and this was mentioned in an earlier posting in this thread

The concept of 'Last stand'.. who was there to report it to show what happened? From whose point of view? The attackers or defenders, who are the heroes and villains...?

Those who escaped Isandlwana were hardly standing taking notes.

At the battle of the little Big Horn who spoke to the Indians?

Lastly we look at these events and revise our view of them based on new facts or from the opposition's point of view are we guilty of revisionist writing?

John

[Greenwoodman]

I wonder why the word "guilty" is juxtaposed with "revisionist"?

[mmbennett]

I had already known of Isandlwana as a defeat for the British Army, but I hadn't realised that Sir Horace Smith-Dorrien had been one the 5% who managed to to escape.

Lord Chelmsford being supported by the queen so escapes from being told he was to blame...

Well, even Queen Victoria had expressed doubts about his leadership capabilities, as had many of his fellow officers. It was hardly a revelation that Lord Chelmsford's military capabilities were sub-par, and that his blunder was recognised by others long before Isandlwana even occured (the Lieutenant-Colonel who was reprimanded by a staff officer for retreating back to camp upon hearing of the Zulu advance).

[David_Bluestein]

Comment has been made as to whether Isandlwana was a true last stand or just a bloody masacre. 

Isandlwana IS, by any standard a true 'last stand'. The column left at Isandlwana were caught unprepared for the days events, however the 24th and other defending units were deployed swiftly to meet the Zulu; NOT to retreat! They must have been aware that this may be a fight to the last. (However there are statements from survivors that define the mood of the 24th during the early stages of the battle as quite confident and even casual in the face of their enemy).

This battle never had a forgone conclusion. The 24th held the line for most of the afternoon, but due to compounding circumstances, such as lack of ammunition were forced to eventually retire. (The Zulu suffered massive casualties during this stage of the fighting). Even after most of the organized resistance had dissolved, the 24th still held on to the last man in small groups; like that of Capt. Younghusband or Col. Durnford who organized some of the final, and more well known last stands. This kind of fighting continued until early evening!

It is true that many fled, as the first companies were overwhelmed and or began to retire. However I believe they did all that was required of their grand old regiment, till the end. The action of Isandlwana has been debated and analyzed for over a hundred years, and will of course continue. However all historians can agree that this action IS, and should always be regarded as a 'last stand' by any definition.

[Terry]

Does anyone have an idea on how many Europeans survived the battle? I recall reading somewhere that the ones who did were for the most part dressed in blue, as opposed to the red tunics of the majority of the force.