Sinking of S.S Leinster

[Neil Clark]

Can anyone help me obtain more detailed info regarding this ship and it's sinking?

I want to add more to this man's entry on the website.

Thanking you all (in anticipation)

Neil

JONES H.S

Private G/22578 Herbert Stanton JONES. The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment). Formerly (23825) or (22578) 21st Lancers. Died at sea (S.S Leinster) Thursday 10th October 1918 aged 29 years. Born Ashford. Enlisted Canterbury. Resided Dover. Son of Edward Stanton Jones and Mary Arm Jones of 18 Edinburgh Road, Ashford, Kent. Buried in the Kirkcudbright (St Cuthbert) Old Churchyard, Scotland.

Herbert’s mother erected a private family memorial in the Ashford Cemetery, Canterbury Road, Ashford. Both Herbert’s parents were buried in the same plot. Edward Stanton Jones (Herbert’s father) died 13th October 1917 aged 64 years.

Herbert drowned when the ship he was travelling in was torpedoed by a German submarine off the East coast of Scotland. The SS Leinster was carrying troops to Russia.

[Arthur]

Hi,

Leinster was torpedoed and sunk in the Irish Sea 7 miles E.S.E. of Kish Light vessel by UB-123 whilst enroute from Dublin to Holyhead. 176 perished including the Master.

Regards

Arthur

[John_Hartley]

Neil

A PM to forum member "oak" will be worthwhile - or check out oak's posts on the subject.

In the meantime, the following extract from my website on one of my war memorial chaps (James Birch, Westmoreland Yeomanry):

James had been training in Ireland and, on 10 October 1918, boarded the SS Leinster for its voyage from Kingstown (now Dun Laoghaire) to Holyhead in Anglesey. He was on his way home for leave.

The 3000 ton ship was owned by the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company and made the passage between the two ports twice a day. The owners of the ship had been warned that she might be target for German submarines and the Company had made several unsuccessful requests to the Ministry of Shipping for a naval escort. On this day, she left Ireland with 687 passengers and 70 crew.

The Manchester Guardian, the next day, reported “Leinster was torpedoed and sunk this morning on the voyage from Kingstown to Holyhead. There were some 700 people on board and over 400 are missing. The boats were got out and some of the passengers were taken off then. Others were picked up from rafts. Some of them were on rafts an hour before they were rescued. Destroyers and other naval craft went to the help of the Leinster’s people. Men, women and children were struggling in the water, others clinging to the rafts and bodies and wreckage were floating about.”

Mr Jones, the ship’s fourth engineer had recounted to the newspaper that two torpedoes had struck the vessel. The first, forward near the mail sorting office and the second had hit the vessel amidships, two or three minutes later. The ship had been about an hour out of port and still lies about 12 miles off the coast. U-Boat-123 never made it home safely. She hit a mine in the North sea and sank.

[Andrew Hesketh]

'Oak' is a very helpful chap indeed and recently advised me on a Leinster enquiry. Therefore I feel happy to recommend his book on the subject: 'Torpedoed! The R.M.S. Leinster Disaster', Philip Lecane, Periscope Publishing.

[Neil Clark]

Thank you all for your kind help and advice.

John,

Have you any objection to me pasting that helpful paragraph straight onto my work (with an acknowledgement of course)?

I take it that I was wrong in saying the ship was transporting troops to Russia...

Neil

[John_Hartley]

Have you any objection to me pasting that helpful paragraph straight onto my work (with an acknowledgement of course)?

I take it that I was wrong in saying the ship was transporting troops to Russia...

Neil

No objection at all. Credit please to - "More than a Name - www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk"

And yep, you're wrong. It was simply the Dublin/Holyhead ferry.

John

[Andrew Hesketh]

It was simply the Dublin/Holyhead ferry.

But there were a lot of soldiers on board going to / from leave. There were also a couple of dozen Royal Defence Corps men acting (presumably) as a kind of 'police'. Researching the loss of one of them was how I came to the Leinster.

[historydavid]

Seems to be some confusion regarding numbers lost.

Hocking (Disasters at Sea) states the ship left port with "with 680 passengers and crew under command of Capt. W. Birch. When only a few hours out she was torpedoed by a German submarine and sank with the loss of 480 lives." These numbers seem 'round,' a technique used when exact numbers are not known.

British Vessels Lost at Sea (which usually only gives crew losses) states 176 lost including the master. This number seems high for a 2,646 grt vessel, but being a ferry it would probably have required lots of additional staff to deal with the pasengers. Also, according to Hocking, it carried 22 Post Office staff to deal with mail.

I suspect the loss figure for passengers (which includes the troops) is something like 687 total on board (using JH's passenger number) less the 176 crew lost (from BVLAS), which gives 511.

Best wishes

David

ps From the Ships List site for City of Dublin Steam Packet Co Ltd - Dublin

which owned the vessel, the number of people lost is given as 176.

[Michael Lowrey]

David,

I think you're slightly off in how you are using the figures in BVLAS. There is an issue with passenger losses, but it's not as you imagine it.

As a general rule, BVLAS casualty figures include passengers lost on merchant ships. It does not include military (army) passengers lost in troopship sinkings.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Borden Battery]

The Sinking of the Leinster

U.S Naval Forces operating in European Water, Destroyer Flotillas, Torpedo Station.

Base Six.

12 October, 1918.

From: J.D. Mason, Chief Special Mechanic, U.S.N.To: Officer in Charge.

Subject: Report of sinking of S.S. Leinster.

1. I took passage, going on leave, on the S.S. Leinster leaving Kingstown, Ireland, sailing about 9.00a.m.At about an hour cut from Kingstown I was sitting on the starboard side aft when I heard one of the soldiers shout: "A torpedo".

Immediately afterwards a shock shook the vessel, of a torpedo which apparently hit the vessel in the vicinity of the mail which was blown out.

I proceeded to the top of the after upper deck with about a dozen men, one of whom kept the remainder from rushing up. This man was one of the ship's crew apparently stationed at the ladder for this purpose.

We hoisted out two boats on the portside, both of which were just reaching the water with the regular crews in them when I saw the second torpedo coming directly for the starboard side.

This torpedo hit about amidships, in the vicinity of the boilers, which apparently exploded, even though I noticed that the boilers were being blown down through the safety valves from the time the first torpedo hit.

The second torpedo and boiler explosion produced an enormous amount of wreckage which fell so thickly in clouds together with steam and debris, that it was difficult to see anything at all.

It was impossible to control the people after the second torpedo hit and there was a rush for the boats and rafts. The ship listed to port and went down by the bow. I left the upper deck and lowered myself over the stern with a rope.

I swam to a hatch and then to a raft. I looked back and saw the ship sink. At the time there were not more than four or five lifeboats right side up in the water and I believe all of them must have capsized.

There were at least a dozen rafts which floated clear but it was very rough and very difficult to stay on the rafts or to hold on when they became crowded. I tried three different rafts, staying on the last one until taken off by the ML 154.

As I went up to the third raft Captain Cone was holding on and in reply to my question as to how he was doing he told me both his legs were broken. The Captain, two U.S. Naval enlisted men, (I think Aviation Quartermasters , one civilian and myself wore the only ones holding on to this raft.

The raft capsized twice and the sea was so high that we could do nothing but hold on to it and pieces of pausing wreckage in an effort to hold the raft steady. I was in the water holding on to this raft about an hour and I would estimate that we were not picked up until two hours from the time ship was torpedoed.

There was considerable difficulty getting the Captain aboard the motor launch, each of us in turn trying to hold him up. Finally one of the crew jumped overboard and made a line fast to him and he was hoisted aboard. The Captain, officers and crew of the ML 154 treated us with great consideration and did everything possible for us which could be done.

This little boat with only half the crew on board picked up altogether twelve or fourteen and by promptly leaving the scene when no more people were alive could be found undoubtedly saved those that they had rescued who were the most seriously injured and exhausted.

The crew of this boat deserve great credit for gallant and untiring action and for the apparently excellent condition of their machinery when run at utmost speed. Fortunately the ML 154 had some whiskey aboard which, in the absence of medical attendance, under the conditions was very much appreciated. Captain Cone was so exhausted that he could not drink but when his lips were moistened with a little whiskey his condition was perceptibly improved.

2. I know that there were at least three other U.S. Naval men on board, one Chief Petty Officer, whom I saw in the distance and two enlisted men who were shipping over and had gone on thirty days leave. These two men were from the UTAH and I saw thorn on a raft afterwards but do not know whether they were saved. There were also several American soldiers on the ship, three or four of which I believe were saved, possibly more.

3. When the torpedo hit I do not think there were any ships in sight but the smoke of the mall steamer, which we had passed, was on the horizon astern. A British destroyer was the first to reach the scene followed shortly after by other destroyers, motor launches and trawlers.

4. Lieutenant E. Unwin of the ML 154, who was at the wheel and to my mind handled the little boat excellently, took me up to his house after landing at Kingstown and was extremely generous and considerate in his treatment. The entire part taken by the ML 154 during this accident cannot be too highly praised.

James B. Mason.

Internet Source: http://www.chapters.eiretek.org/books/General/leinster.html

---------------------------------------------------

U-Boat

This primary website contains detailed information on the German U-Boat from both the Great War and the Second World War. The site also contains a discussion forum [44,000 posts] and a good source of referenced material and articles. While the site is primarily Second World War, there is a growing commitment to the Great War. Statistics indicate apparently in WWI a total of 375 U boats sank 6596 merchant ships, a total of 12,800,000 tons. The site is operated from Iceland by Gudmundur Helgason with a detailed database being developed by Michael Lowrey. [updated July 2006]

www.uboat.net

UB 123

Type - UB III

Shipyard - A.G. Weser, Bremen (Werk 296)

Ordered - 28 Feb, 1917

Laid down - 13 Jul, 1917

Launched - 2 Mar, 1918

Commissioned - 6 Apr, 1918

Commanders - 6 Apr, 1918 - 19 Oct, 1918 Robert Ramm

Career - 2 patrols

22 Jun, 1918 - 19 Oct, 1918 III Flotilla

Successes - 5 ships sunk for a total of 4.490 tons (warships excluded).

Fate - 19 Oct, 1918 - Most likely mined in the Northern Barrage. 36 dead (all hands lost).

[Neil Clark]

Thanks lads.

I have posted a couple of other problems that I have with Ashford men - SS Adriatic and SS Russian!

Once again the forum "comes up trumps". What a fantastic research tool it is! Who needs books...

Neil

[Andrew Hesketh]

BB - thanks for that link. I hadn't come across that one.

[neiluwins]

Neil

Attached is a photo of the grave of Herbert Stanton Jones

Buried in St Cuthbert (Old Churchyard) Kirkcudbright, Scotland

After the sinking Herberts body was finally washed ashore in southern Scotland he was buried in the local churchyard along with four other RMS Leinster military casualties:

369634 Sapper C Hitchcock RE

835 Pte C Christopher Leinster Reg

1600050 Sjt A Pankhurst Shropshire Yeo

20495 Cpl E Withington Royal Defence Corps

I have H S Jones WW1 Victory medal & memorial Plaque in my collection.

if you would like a photo of his medal & Plaque and a better copy of his grave photo send me a personal message and we can swap email address, I'd be interested in a copy of the War memorial photo and family grave if you have one

[historydavid]

Thanks for that clarification Michael. It seems to settle the lost total as 176.

Best wishes

David

[Neil Clark]

Neil

Attached is a photo of the grave of Herbert Stanton Jones

Buried in St Cuthbert (Old Churchyard) Kirkcudbright, Scotland

After the sinking Herberts body was finally washed ashore in southern Scotland he was buried in the local churchyard along with four other RMS Leinster military casualties:

369634 Sapper C Hitchcock RE

835 Pte C Christopher Leinster Reg

1600050 Sjt A Pankhurst Shropshire Yeo

20495 Cpl E Withington Royal Defence Corps

I have H S Jones WW1 Victory medal & memorial Plaque in my collection.

if you would like a photo of his medal & Plaque and a better copy of his grave photo send me a personal message and we can swap email address, I'd be interested in a copy of the War memorial photo and family grave if you have one

Hi Neil,

Well would you believe it!!!

I am very grateful for that photo. I would be honoured if you would PM your Email address to me. I shall then gladly provide you with the following photos -

1. Ashford Civic War Memorial

2. Ashford Civic War Memorial (close up of his name)

3. St Mary's Ashford Church Plaque with his name on it

Also I hear that a photo of Herbert was printed in the Kentish Express. I will send you a copy if I manage to find one.

I am glad his medals have gone to a good home...

Regards

Neil

[gemesis]

Can anyone help me obtain more detailed info regarding this ship and it's sinking?

I want to add more to this man's entry on the website.

Thanking you all (in anticipation)

Neil

JONES H.S

Private G/22578 Herbert Stanton JONES. The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment). Formerly (23825) or (22578) 21st Lancers. Died at sea (S.S Leinster) Thursday 10th October 1918 aged 29 years. Born Ashford. Enlisted Canterbury. Resided Dover. Son of Edward Stanton Jones and Mary Arm Jones of 18 Edinburgh Road, Ashford, Kent. Buried in the Kirkcudbright (St Cuthbert) Old Churchyard, Scotland.

Herbert’s mother erected a private family memorial in the Ashford Cemetery, Canterbury Road, Ashford. Both Herbert’s parents were buried in the same plot. Edward Stanton Jones (Herbert’s father) died 13th October 1917 aged 64 years.

Herbert drowned when the ship he was travelling in was torpedoed by a German submarine off the East coast of Scotland. The SS Leinster was carrying troops to Russia.

Neil,

My grandfathers brother died when RMS Leinster was torpedoed by UB-123 on the 10th October 1918 and I have done quite a lot of research. The Leinster was a mail ship and operated between Holyhead and Kingstown. It carried mainly military but also many civillians, including women and children. Two torpedoes hit the ship and 501 people died. RMS Leinster went down very quickly, not long after leaving Ireland, so a bit confusing when you mention the East coast of Scotland ? Also a quick look at the passenger list does not include Pte. Herbert Stanton Jones or any others of the regiment that you mention. What I can tell you is that the sinking of the Leinster was hidden for many years and has only in recent times been remembered. Elder members of my family said wrongly that it was the Lusitania and this held up my research for years. I have loads more on the sinking of the Leinster if you are interested. It is a fascinating but sad story. I do realise that you may by now know most of the above ?

Regards,

Samuel.

[oak]

Pals might be interested in the site www.rmsleinster.com The site is a work in progress, compiled by Will Lockhart and myself. Will's relative Frank Higgerty was lost on the Leinster.

By the way, "British Vessels Lost at Sea" gives the death toll from the Leinster as 176. As the book itself says, casualties figures do not include any military who may have been on board the ships that were lost. Based on "British Vessels Lost at Sea," the 176 figure is often quoted for the Leinster sinking. This has had the unfortunate result of concealing the scale of the tragedy. Most of those who died on the Leinster were military personnel. According to the ship's owners 501 people were lost on the Leinster. After 7 years of research I came up with the names of 530 casualties. Within the last two weeks I have been told of a few more.

The Leinster sinking resulted in the highest ever loss of life in the Irish Sea. It was also the highest ever loss of life on an Irish owned ship.

Philip

[Andrew Hesketh]

www.rmsleinster.com

Very good!

[neiluwins]

Hi Phililp

PM on it's way

Cheers

Neil

[Guest Youngy73]

Reading the account from James B Mason was fantastic - the member of the crew who jumped overboard and fastened the line around Captain Cone was my Great Grandfather, Alexander Young. We have a letter dated 25 November 1918 from Captain Cone thanking him and the rest of the crew of His Majesty's Motor Launch 154, written shortly before he left Dublin Castle Hospital.

The Sinking of the Leinster

U.S Naval Forces operating in European Water, Destroyer Flotillas, Torpedo Station.

Base Six.

12 October, 1918.

From: J.D. Mason, Chief Special Mechanic, U.S.N.To: Officer in Charge.

Subject: Report of sinking of S.S. Leinster.

1. I took passage, going on leave, on the S.S. Leinster leaving Kingstown, Ireland, sailing about 9.00a.m.At about an hour cut from Kingstown I was sitting on the starboard side aft when I heard one of the soldiers shout: "A torpedo".

Mark

Immediately afterwards a shock shook the vessel, of a torpedo which apparently hit the vessel in the vicinity of the mail which was blown out.

I proceeded to the top of the after upper deck with about a dozen men, one of whom kept the remainder from rushing up. This man was one of the ship's crew apparently stationed at the ladder for this purpose.

We hoisted out two boats on the portside, both of which were just reaching the water with the regular crews in them when I saw the second torpedo coming directly for the starboard side.

This torpedo hit about amidships, in the vicinity of the boilers, which apparently exploded, even though I noticed that the boilers were being blown down through the safety valves from the time the first torpedo hit.

The second torpedo and boiler explosion produced an enormous amount of wreckage which fell so thickly in clouds together with steam and debris, that it was difficult to see anything at all.

It was impossible to control the people after the second torpedo hit and there was a rush for the boats and rafts. The ship listed to port and went down by the bow. I left the upper deck and lowered myself over the stern with a rope.

I swam to a hatch and then to a raft. I looked back and saw the ship sink. At the time there were not more than four or five lifeboats right side up in the water and I believe all of them must have capsized.

There were at least a dozen rafts which floated clear but it was very rough and very difficult to stay on the rafts or to hold on when they became crowded. I tried three different rafts, staying on the last one until taken off by the ML 154.

As I went up to the third raft Captain Cone was holding on and in reply to my question as to how he was doing he told me both his legs were broken. The Captain, two U.S. Naval enlisted men, (I think Aviation Quartermasters , one civilian and myself wore the only ones holding on to this raft.

The raft capsized twice and the sea was so high that we could do nothing but hold on to it and pieces of pausing wreckage in an effort to hold the raft steady. I was in the water holding on to this raft about an hour and I would estimate that we were not picked up until two hours from the time ship was torpedoed.

There was considerable difficulty getting the Captain aboard the motor launch, each of us in turn trying to hold him up. Finally one of the crew jumped overboard and made a line fast to him and he was hoisted aboard. The Captain, officers and crew of the ML 154 treated us with great consideration and did everything possible for us which could be done.

This little boat with only half the crew on board picked up altogether twelve or fourteen and by promptly leaving the scene when no more people were alive could be found undoubtedly saved those that they had rescued who were the most seriously injured and exhausted.

The crew of this boat deserve great credit for gallant and untiring action and for the apparently excellent condition of their machinery when run at utmost speed. Fortunately the ML 154 had some whiskey aboard which, in the absence of medical attendance, under the conditions was very much appreciated. Captain Cone was so exhausted that he could not drink but when his lips were moistened with a little whiskey his condition was perceptibly improved.

2. I know that there were at least three other U.S. Naval men on board, one Chief Petty Officer, whom I saw in the distance and two enlisted men who were shipping over and had gone on thirty days leave. These two men were from the UTAH and I saw thorn on a raft afterwards but do not know whether they were saved. There were also several American soldiers on the ship, three or four of which I believe were saved, possibly more.

3. When the torpedo hit I do not think there were any ships in sight but the smoke of the mall steamer, which we had passed, was on the horizon astern. A British destroyer was the first to reach the scene followed shortly after by other destroyers, motor launches and trawlers.

4. Lieutenant E. Unwin of the ML 154, who was at the wheel and to my mind handled the little boat excellently, took me up to his house after landing at Kingstown and was extremely generous and considerate in his treatment. The entire part taken by the ML 154 during this accident cannot be too highly praised.

James B. Mason.

Internet Source: http://www.chapters.eiretek.org/books/General/leinster.html

---------------------------------------------------

U-Boat

This primary website contains detailed information on the German U-Boat from both the Great War and the Second World War. The site also contains a discussion forum [44,000 posts] and a good source of referenced material and articles. While the site is primarily Second World War, there is a growing commitment to the Great War. Statistics indicate apparently in WWI a total of 375 U boats sank 6596 merchant ships, a total of 12,800,000 tons. The site is operated from Iceland by Gudmundur Helgason with a detailed database being developed by Michael Lowrey. [updated July 2006]

www.uboat.net

UB 123

Type - UB III

Shipyard - A.G. Weser, Bremen (Werk 296)

Ordered - 28 Feb, 1917

Laid down - 13 Jul, 1917

Launched - 2 Mar, 1918

Commissioned - 6 Apr, 1918

Commanders - 6 Apr, 1918 - 19 Oct, 1918 Robert Ramm

Career - 2 patrols

22 Jun, 1918 - 19 Oct, 1918 III Flotilla

Successes - 5 ships sunk for a total of 4.490 tons (warships excluded).

Fate - 19 Oct, 1918 - Most likely mined in the Northern Barrage. 36 dead (all hands lost).

[Borden Battery]

Glad to be of service. Borden Battery

[oak]

Hello Youngy73,

Welcome to the Forum. As the author of a book on the sinking of the R.M.S. Leinster, I'm always delighted to make contact with relatives of those caught up in the sinking and its aftermath. I have sent you a personal message.

Regards,

Philip

[Guest Youngy73]

Hello,

I've attached a picture of Alexander Young, and also a scan of the letter from Captain Cope, which stated on the back "to be read to the crew of Motor Launch 154.

I'm afraid it's not in great condition so the copy isn't great.

Mark

[oak]

Mark,

Many thanks for the photograph and letter. They are very interesting. Do you have much information on Alexander Young? I would be very grateful for background information on him. In the midst of all the death caused by the Leinster sinking it's great to know that there were heroes like Alexander Young.

Regards,

Philip

[manchester regiment]

mrs hopwood of 21 stanley st whos husband sgt charles hopwood was reported killed in action a year ago,has now recieved news that her father reuben ellis and nephew thomas ellis[aged 14]have drowned in the sinking of the leinster,her father who had been the caretaker at cork barracks having previously served with the RAMC and retiring with the rank of staff serjeant,she recieved a letter from the rev morris from the hibernian hotel,dublin,your father and little tom have been drowned,i have found their bodies and ime arranging for their funeral.

reuben ellis was sailing home to live out his remaining years with his daughter and to comfort her in the loss of her husband

bernard