Sapper 238089 R.E. Albert Edward Annis

[Glayham]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

No worries = a better job

There was a special uniform of 'Hospital Blues' for treatment in military hospitals [as shown in post no. two above] but that was not what your photo showed.

Any chance of a steer on the marriage you have described - your source(s) perhaps please?

M

The Marriage details come from my Mum, she lived in Cardiff and was literally handed over the fence, to the person I know as Gran (I never knew Albert Edward Annis) When the Luftwaffe managed to reach  and bomb the Cardiff docks where we stored our Oil for the war. My gangs name was Frederica Pauline Wilamina Annis Nee Youngblood.

The first photo posted was found in my Grans possessions with no name. I have guessed it is the same person who as the much older person in this photo who was Albert Edward Annis. this last photo is verified. The solider is not verified apart from I felt looking similar. I have nothing else or no-one else to refer to, However wanted to put an identity to him (the WW1 solider)

thanks

Graham

 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Glayham said:

23 minutes ago, Glayham said:

does anyone think this is the same person as my earlier post?

Your first photo of a soldier, above, appears to me to show an artilleryman I think given the general cap badge shape [and potentially the shoulder title which is even more obscure]

He's wearing the rank chevrons/stripes of a Corporal [Bombardier I think]

The lanyard may offer a clue to those with more knowledge than me - possibly @FROGSMILE @Andrew Upton @David Porter ??

Have you a date for that photo? [Possibly an older man with later/post-war service ???] Edit : I note you have just posted

M

Further edit: And one medal ribbon, I think - colours hard to identify when in b/w or subsequently - which goes against much later service as other war medals would have been issued

Edited 19 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
further edit

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Your first photo of a soldier, above, appears to me to show an artilleryman I think given the general cap badge shape [and potentially the shoulder title which is even more obscure]

He's wearing the rank chevrons/stripes of a Corporal [Bombardier I think]

The lanyard may offer a clue to those with more knowledge than me - possibly @FROGSMILE @Andrew Upton @David Porter ??

Have you a date for that photo? [Possibly an older man with later/post-war service ???] Edit : I note you have just posted

M

Yes you’re right that he’s an artilleryman of sorts, but his shoulder title is too distorted by reflection to tell which branch.  He has a star ribbon, so probably taken in 1918. His rank is corporal. Bombardier at that time was one stripe, but unlike in the cavalry and infantry a substantive, pension earning step in the promotion ladder.  That status was shared with equivalent ranks in the RE and AOC.

I’m not sure if it’s the same man, the gap in time is too long to pick up features with any confidence l think.  I agree though that there are some similarities, especially around the nose, mouth, and chin.

Edited 19 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes you’re right that he’s an artilleryman of sorts but shoulder title too distorted by reflection.  He has a star ribbon so probably taken in 1918.

Thanks.

I wasn't sure about he medal but have just suggested a later, rather than early, date.

M

Edit: I note you have subsequently clarifed his rank. As you know, not my field really so was rather having a punt with Bombardier - that'll teach me!

Edited 19 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Glayham]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks.

I wasn't sure about he medal but have just suggested a later, rather than early, date.

M

Thank you so much for the feedback that really is very kind of you and helpful. I've always wondered who the solider was as it must have been so precious to my gran. Info I do know is that it would not have been a relation as she was of German descent and hid her identity for fear of persecution at that time. Her original surname would have been Yungbluth. (Her father was head keeper at London zoo at the turn of the last century)  

 

So with that in mind I guessed it must have been a partner or sweetheart and Albert Edward Annis.

The photos has been cut out into an oval and stuck to the brown card. there are no other markings on it 

 

thanks G

 

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Glayham said:

Thank you so much for the feedback that really is very kind of you and helpful. I've always wondered who the solider was as it must have been so precious to my gran. Info I do know is that it would not have been a relation as she was of German descent and hid her identity for fear of persecution at that time. Her original surname would have been Yungbluth. (Her father was head keeper at London zoo at the turn of the last century)  

 

So with that in mind I guessed it must have been a partner or sweetheart and Albert Edward Annis.

The photos has been cut out into an oval and stuck to the brown card. there are no other markings on it 

 

thanks G

 

Just to be clear, G, the soldier in the photo is not in the Royal Engineers and so unlikely to be Albert Edward Annis, unless you have mistaken that man’s corps.

Edited 19 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Hi @Glayham and a belated welcome to the forum

For ease of comparison I've tried to put the three faces side by side. Personal opinion but while I can just about see how the Albert Annis in the 1915/17 picture could change over time into the older man, I don't think your Royal Artillery Corporal is the same man.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 20 June , 2023 by PRC
Revised caption on photograph - thanks to Matlock1418 for noticing my late night error :-)

[Michelle Young]

Thinking laterally, there are 2 MIC for men called Youngblood in the RA, and 2 to Youngblut………..

[Glayham]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Hi @Glayham and a belated welcome to the forum

For ease of comparison I've tried to put the three faces side by side. Personal opinion but while I can just about see how the Albert Annis in the 1915/17 picture could change over time into the older man, I don't think your Royal Artillery Corporal is the same man.

 

No new IP is claimed for the above, and all image rights remain with the current owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter and hello 😊. I wonder if I have stumbled on the Albert Annis who is a the RE corps and mistaken him for the Albert Annis in later life. I also now wonder if the RA Corporal in 1918 is the same person as Albert in later life at all given Michelle's comment below.

 

[Glayham]

29 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

Thinking laterally, there are 2 MIC for men called Youngblood in the RA, and 2 to Youngblut………..

Hello Michelle, how are you. thanks for taking a look at the photo I'm really grateful. 

I wonder now if the Photo of the RA Corporal is not my grans father rather then her husband (Albert Annis in later life) 

How would I find out the christian names of rh men you mentioned (Youngblood/Yungbluth). My grans dad's name was Eustace I believe.

 

G 

[Michelle Young]

MIC image courtesy of Ancestry.

[Matlock1418]

12 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

MIC image courtesy of Ancestry.

Michelle, Looks like an interesting find - but not showing up on WFA/Fold3 for some reason [???] Also at TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=youngblood+1610&_sd=&_ed=&_hb=

M

[Glayham]

13 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

MIC image courtesy of Ancestry.

Oh my gosh, does that actually read Eustace in the blue ink. Have we perhaps identified the photo of the RA corporal as being my Grans Father...

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, Glayham said:

Oh my gosh, does that actually read Eustace in the blue ink.

Yes it does.

M

Edit: The MIC shows Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, 1610, 935449, Royal Field Artillery entered a theatre of war France 5.10.15 and that entitled him to the 1914-15 Star [as in your photo?], British War Medal and Victory Medal  - with the rank of Corporal [as seen on your photo] on the latter medals.

We probably need the likes of @David Porter and his artillery knowledge to more enlighten us as to his service.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit & add mention

[Glayham]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes it does.

M

Edit: The MIC shows Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, 1610, 935449, Royal Field Artillery entered a theatre of war France 5.10.15 and that entitled him to the 1914-15 Star [as in your photo?], British War Medal and Victory Medal  - with the rank of Corporal [as seen on your photo] on the latter medals.

We probably need the likes of @David Porter and his artillery knowledge to more enlighten us as to his service.

My Grans dad would have been from Germany originally and I believe from what my um has mentioned they changed their family name from Young,uth to Young blood, My gran was born in St Johns wood. The Eustace Youngblood I know of became head keeper at London zoo. Would it have been usual to have a person originally from Germany in the British army at that time do you think? 

 

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, Glayham said:

Would it have been usual to have a person originally from Germany in the British army at that time do you think? 

Probably fairly unusual, but certainly not unheard of.

It really depended if such a man was considered an 'Alien' or not.

There are a number of interesting GWF threads on this topic and some interesting books on the subjects of aliens generally - a readable one is 'Meeting the Enemy' by Richard Van Emden

M

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
typo

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting that he was Territorial Force throughout the war and arrived in theatre (France) in 1915.  I wonder if he was already a part-timer prewar, perhaps seeing which way the wind was blowing, as many were at that time.  It would have been a way of actively demonstrating his loyalty too, especially in light of any difficult origins.  Either way he joined before conscription began.  His two numbers, short and then long reflect the renumbering of TF soldiers late in the war (1917 I think).  That was a good spot by Michelle.

Quite a number of Aliens were used to form infantry labour companies, badged to the Middlesex Regiment purely for conventience, early in the war.  Uniquely they were not absorbed by the Labour Corps when it was formed in 1917 and remained completely independent throughout.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

56 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

The MIC shows Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, 1610, 935449, Royal Field Artillery

MiC shows Eustace C. Youngblood and Roll is indexed on Ancestry as Eustace Charles Youngblood.

The 1917 TF number, 935449, comes from the block allocated to 292 Brigade, RFA (935001 to 940000). https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

The original 292 Brigade does not appear to have gone overseas, but Eustace may have been found no longer fit for frontline service by this stage of the war or was convalescing in the UK. Or it may be the case that another brigade was renumbered 292, (or CCXCII as they were formally numbered). https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-royal-artillery-in-the-first-world-war/batteries-and-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/ccxc-ccxci-ccxcii-and-ccxciii-brigades-of-the-royal-field-artillery/

Not spotting an obvious casualty list appearance under either service number, but they are not the easiest thing to search and only cover combat wounds, not ill-health, and accidental injuries tends to only get listed if it causes death.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

Not spotting an obvious casualty list appearance under either service number, but they are not the easiest thing to search and only cover combat wounds, not ill-health, and accidental injuries tends to only get listed if it causes death.

Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, 1610, 935449, Royal Field Artillery

Not [yet?] showing up on WFA/Fold3's pension index cards/pension ledger pages [then again they didn't earlier show his MIC] so ???

M

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
tweak

[Glayham]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Thinking laterally, there are 2 MIC for men called Youngblood in the RA, and 2 to Youngblut………..

Thanks for all the info. There’s a good amount for me to absorb. 
 

I have since spoken to my mum. She says that it cannot be my Gran’s Dad as the timeline is wrong. However she does say that my gran’s (Frederica Whilamina Anniss)  brother was also called Eustice after his dad 

she is going to dig into old paperwork she has and see what worse she can find out. 

Eustice Youngblood was born in Middlesex (I think) in 1897 so the unknown RA would need to be about 21 yes in the photo.  It does sound much more plausible.
mum is also going to see if you can find a middle name for Eustice which might verify if it is the same person 

 

thanks

G
 

 

By the way, what is the abbreviation MIC? Please excuse my ignorance 

 

G 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Glayham said:

By the way, what is the abbreviation MIC? Please excuse my ignorance 

G 

Medal Index Card.   That is the card with the red writing that Michelle posted.  These were individual filing cards and directly linked to lengthy nominal rolls for each specific regiment divided into its battalions that served overseas (regiments raised differing numbers of battalion’s according to how large their specified recruiting areas were).  These latter were called ‘medal rolls’ because they related specifically to the eligibility for medals.

Together with pension records for those eligible, medal rolls and medal index cards are largely the only personnel records to have survived up to the present day, as the vast majority of the much more important individual ‘service records’ (that each soldier had tracing his movements within the Army) were destroyed by the aerial bombing of their storage warehouse during the Blitz of WW2 (only around 1/6th survived and much of that proportion was water and smoke damaged).

As a result the MIC have become very important, but they are limited in that they only show the units served with overseas and not any that might have been served with in Britain before embarkation (which can cause confusion if family photos only show men in uniform before they departed overseas).  This is because soldiers, especially infantry, often (but not always) moved to a different unit upon arrival in France).

Edited 20 June , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[David Porter]

935449 is a six figure number within the block allocated to 3rd London Brigade RFA from January 1917. The overseas date of October 5, 1915 indicates the first line going to France i.e. 282nd Brigade RFA. 1603/935447 Gerald William Charles Warren enlisted on September 16, 1914, so 1610 should be same day or shortly afterwards.

Edited 20 June , 2023 by David Porter

[Matlock1418]

50 minutes ago, Glayham said:

I have since spoken to my mum. She says that it cannot be my Gran’s Dad as the timeline is wrong. However she does say that my gran’s (Frederica Whilamina Anniss)  brother was also called Eustice after his dad 

she is going to dig into old paperwork she has and see what worse she can find out. 

Eustice Youngblood was born in Middlesex (I think) in 1897 so the unknown RA would need to be about 21 yes in the photo.  It does sound much more plausible.
mum is also going to see if you can find a middle name for Eustice which might verify if it is the same person 

Think you are going to need to sort out your genealogy / family tree as best you can.

Not [yet?] found a Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, born 1897 [in Middlesex or anywhere] or a Eustace C YOUNGBLOOD born 1897 in the UK but of course he could perhaps have been born overseas, possibly in Germany, perhaps as a Yungbluth [???].

Or around then and there in the UK = ???

But there are these from FreeBMD:

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1921   (>99%)
Youngblood	Eustace C	Helps	Shoreditch	1c	91

and

Surname	First name(s)	Mother	District	Vol	Page
Births Sep 1922   (>99%)
Youngblood	Eustace C	Helps	Shoreditch	1c	60

This birth confirmed at the General Register Office as YOUNGBLOOD, Eustace Charles

Does the Shoreditch registration district and/or the HELPS maiden name match any other family records?

Rather seems the time/at some stage an occasion to look at  the 1911 and 1921 Censuses

Plus possibly at the Absent Voter Lists for 1918 and 1919.

???

M

Edited 20 June , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Glayham]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Think you are going to need to sort out your genealogy / family tree as best you can.

Not [yet?] found a Eustace YOUNGBLOOD, born 1897 [in Middlesex or anywhere] or a Eustace C YOUNGBLOOD born 1897 in the UK but of course he could perhaps have been born overseas, possibly in Germany, perhaps as a Yungbluth [???].

Or around then and there in the UK = ???

But there are these from FreeBMD:

Surname	First name(s)	Spouse	District	Vol	Page
Marriages Sep 1921   (>99%)
Youngblood	Eustace C	Helps	Shoreditch	1c	91

and

Surname	First name(s)	Mother	District	Vol	Page
Births Sep 1922   (>99%)
Youngblood	Eustace C	Helps	Shoreditch	1c	60

This birth confirmed at the General Register Office as YOUNGBLOOD, Eustace Charles

Does the Shoreditch registration district and/or the HELPS maiden name match any other family records?

Rather seems the time/at some stage an occasion to look at  the 1911 and 1921 Censuses

Plus possibly at the Absent Voter Lists for 1918 and 1919.

???

 

[Glayham]

Just now, Glayham said:

Sorry to all for being confusing in the info I’m providing. Eustace’s details are on the 1901. Census,  he was born around Marylebone  and not Middlesex - sorry.

his dad was also known as Eustace Yungbluth. 
 

fingers crossed my mum can add more clarity when she’s up to it looking at docs she has