Turkish Line in Gallipoli

[The Plummed Goose]

Let us make this even a bit more confusing ... but it is certainly not going to help us find THE Halil Tepe ...

In Anafartalar their is indeed a Lieutenant-Colonel, the commander of the Turkish 20th Regiment / 7th Division buried, together with his colleague Lieutenant-Colonel Ziya of the 21st Regiment ... His name is HaliT (with T). As for where and how they got killed I am quoting a newly appeared guidebook by two locals (assisted by Bill for the English version) in which I have blind faith given the time they invested to prepare this book:

quote : "In the burial site furthest from the village lie two army officers : Lieutenant-Colonel Halit Bey, the commander of the Turkish 20th Regiment and Lieutenant-Colonel Ziya Bey, the commander of the Turkish 21st Regiment, both in the 7th Division. Halit Bey was killed in fighting at Hill 60 and Ziya Bey died around Asmalı Dere, during the fighting on August 11. The two officers were later buried in the village cemetery.

Gallipoli Battlefield Guide/Çanakkale Muharebe Alanlari Gezi Rehberi, Istanbul 2006, Gürsel Göncü & Şahin Aldoğan, p. 129

A few hundred meters dwon the road are another pair of graves of First Lt Halid (yes correct name but wrong grade and unit !!) & Lt Ali Rıza’s. These guys actually gave a name to a hill as you can read in the quote from the same guidebook.

quote : The inscription reads : Prayers to the souls of First Lieutenant of Cavalry Halid Efendi of 3rd Army Corps, 4th Regiment, 1st Company and Lieutenant of Cavalry Ali Rıza Efendi of the 15th Regiment, 4th Company who were killed in the attack to recapture Halid Rıza Hill during the fight at Arıburnu on 30 May 1915. First Lieutenant Halid and Lieutenant Ali Rıza Efendi died on 30 May in fighting on Halid Rıza Hill (Old No 3 Outpost) in the Anzac sector which was named after them.

Gallipoli Battlefield Guide/Çanakkale Muharebe Alanlari Gezi Rehberi, Istanbul 2006, Gürsel Göncü & Şahin Aldoğan, p. 133

eric

[michaeldr]

Thanks to Aukkid for the always appreciated good humour and to Eric for his patience. Thanks also to Phil for raising this topic and the excuse for one of my rants

Why don't authors and / or picture editors pay more attention to this aspect of publishing?

The photograph used here comes from the Turkish General Staff collection in Ankara,

but apart from that we and the author know nothing about it; we do not know when it was taken or even where! So why pray was it included here?

A picture, we are told, is worth a thousand words;

then why not check them thoroughly before going into print with them

Old Jo Murray must be spinning in his grave if he knows that his book 'Gallipoli 1915' has just been republished including a photograph entitled

'Imperial forces advancing through the thick bush of German East Africa'

There is an English guide book to Gallipoli with a famous statue on its front cover

But reproduced the wrong way around! A fool like me can tell this even before seeing the statue its self, just by looking at the inscription

There is a certain battalion history which shows another battalion on the front of its dust jacket;

same division, but wrong battalion – why?

Is there any chance that in the future pictures will be given the same 'proof read' as the words – I don't expect it to be a thousand fold, just the same proof read would be a step in the right direction

Regards

Michael

[Steve Newman]

Hi All

Very interesting thread.

The picture was indeed used in Gallipoli Then and Now, however I was never fully convinced it was actually taken on any of the battlefields of the peninsula, hence I only included it captionless in a 'quote box' to show Turkish troops rather than used as a 'then and now' location. I felt it important to have some Turkish/German pictures in but they were harder to come by and lots (and I mean lots!!) were incorrectly captioned as being in all sorts of famous actions which they catergorically were not.

The W Beach shout is a good one but having carried the picture around and tried to match it, it never really worked. The building opposite also looked all wrong and whilst this may have been destroyed in the pre landing shelling I could find no pre war pictures or maps confirming its existence, it also appeared/s to be around 50ft lower than you would need to be to match the shot with the sea in the distance! I definitely don't think its Sedd-el-Behr/ V Beach and come back to my original point, I'm not even sure if its on the peninsula and/or taken between April 1915-Jan 1916.

Regards to all

Steve

[The Plummed Goose]

Dear All,

Steve, came across the picture in your book (looking for something else) without knowning you had contributed to this post as well. I have scanned it and it is attached. I haven't done this to "use more space" but if you look closely it is alot clearer that the first one posted.

Said this ... I still don't know where it is !!!

eric

[Eceabat]

Pals,

The plot thickens on this one. I showed this photo to Sahin Aldogan, the almost infallible source on the Turkish side of the campaign, and Melike Bayrak, an historian of the campaign and an Ottoman scholar.

Interestingly, both feel that the photo may not from the campaign, due on the fact that the light coloured uniforms were those issued to troops serving in the desert regions of the Ottoman Empire, especially what is now Palestine, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

Their second point is that some of the officers are wearing headgear that appears not to be the "Enver" cap (named after Enver Pasha, one of the leaders of the Young Turks and the War Minister during the war). The headwear appears to be of pre war issue.

Another point is that Sahin, who has studied the campaign for more than 40 years, and probably knows the terrain better than any man living, can’t place location shown in the photo. It does look a bit desolate, even for the Peninsula. Given that it is supposed to depict Turkish troops repelling a landing, there should have been spring vegetation in evidence.

Just another few ingredients for the pot.

Cheers

Bill

[michaeldr]

Bill,

Many thanks for following-up on this and for obtaining the valuable opinion of Sahin Aldogan; it is very interesting to hear his comments

You didn't by any chance also show him/mention to him the other photograph which is aledgedly also taken from the

same Halil Bey Hill ? [see my posts #s 7 & 17 above]

regards

Michael

[Crunchy]

"On the banks of each side of the road are plots in which are the graves of Lieutenant -Colonel (Yarbay) Halit Bey, Commander of the 20th Regiment, 7th Division..............killed at Bomba Sirti (Mortar Ridge).......on 11th August."

Could Halil Bey Hill (or Halit Bey Hill) be in the Antafarta area and could the lake refered to be that which we know as the Salt Lake?

Sorry to muddy the waters but Bomba Sirti (Mortar Ridge) runs off the southern (inland) side of Baby 700 in the ANZAC area, the spur beyond Quinn's Post.

[michaeldr]

Your not muddying the waters at all Crunchy: I accept Sahin Aldogan's opinion

My speculation was tongue in cheek

The idea that a respected authority could say something like quote "it is named after Col Hail Bey, so it must be in the 7 Ottoman Division area" as the justification for his including the photograph in his book came as a shock and disappointment to me

best regards

Michael