PhilB Posted 26 May , 2006 Share Posted 26 May , 2006 Turkish position overlooking the beaches. House in background. Where is it? Phil B PS it is from http://www.greatwar.nl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 26 May , 2006 Share Posted 26 May , 2006 hi phil, it seems to me that the place in the pic is W-BEACH on which the men of the 1st Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers landed on the early morning of april,25th, regards tuna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 26 May , 2006 That was my first thought, Tuna, but on second thought, I don`t think the far side matches up! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 28 May , 2006 Share Posted 28 May , 2006 Dear Phil, I have this picture in Mühlmann's "Der Kampf um die Dardanellen 1915" and although it says "Abwehr eines Landungsversuchs", meaning "repulsing a landing", it is clearly a "mise en scene". My guess it that it could be ANYWHERE in the peninsula or on the Asian side where there were troops ... and this could even be a picture taken during maneuvres before OR after the campaign. As for the exact location I do not have a clue .... None of the familiar places on the peninsula seem to meet the criteria ... ( If it is taken here I make a wild guess (I do not know the terrain in detail over there) and say it could be between Yenişehir and Beşika Bay. This would explain why there is no land visible across the sea ... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 28 May , 2006 Share Posted 28 May , 2006 Turkish position overlooking the beaches. House in background. Where is it? Phil B PS it is from http://www.greatwar.nl/ Is that a small jetty the other side of the bay or just a smudge on the photo? Also, is there a beach of the kind that is exposed at low tide. If so, that may be the clue to where it is. I have looked around recently for good Gallipoli maps and have put some of them on a new page on the WFA site. More to follow when I find any. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 May , 2006 Share Posted 30 May , 2006 I go along with Eric on this that it could really be anywhere/anytime Steve Newman reproduces it in his 'Gallipoli Then and Now' but alas, without any ID of the local. His version stretches further to the right, and if I am not mistaken, there are more buildings to be seen there; if correct, does this tell us anything? Also, does anyone have any comments on the uniform? In particular the long white coat which most of the men seem to be wearing? Does this give us a clue as to the Ottoman unit which was involved here and thus help us to narrow down the search for a site? regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 This same photograph also appears in 'Gallipoli 1915' by Prof Tim Travers see page 37 Travers provides the caption info as foll: 'Turkish soldiers practicing defence against a landing. The location is Halil Bey Hill, on the southeastern edge of the peninsula. Halil Bey was the commander of Turkish 7th Division in the Helles sector.' This prompts a few comments & questions - Travers does not say when the practice defence took place; before 25th April 1915 or after 9th January 1916 - Sketches 5 and 5A in the OH suggest that on 25th April 1915 the Helles sector was defended by the Turkish 9th Div and that on that day the Turkish 7th Div were in the Bulair area - Does anyone know the location of 'Halil Bey Hill, on the southeastern edge of the peninsula'? Is Travers refering somewhere above 'S Beach'? My own guess is that this photograph is post 9th Jan '16 I welcome your comments Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 1 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2006 That would put it somewhere round the Helles Memorial? Still don`t recognize it! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 Not really Phil I would say that Helles is the southwestern tip, not the southeastern To my way of thinking the term 'southeastern' suggests the other side of Morto Bay As I said early, perhaps in the area of 'S' Beach, or Eski Hissarlik Pnt., or perhaps even De Tott's Batt. Hopefully someone will know the name Halil Bey Hill regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 1 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2006 Not really Phil I would say that Helles is the southwestern tip, not the southeastern regards Michael D.R. I must have been dizzy after walking up to the Memorial. And it was very hot! I assume the hill was named after the Turk commander of that name. I can only find reference to his division at White House. Is that in the SE corner? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 friends when i first looked at the pic,i thought that the place might be W beach, but on inquiry i have found out that the pic shows the location of some trenches a little way off the old-fort, i make bold to say that the place shown in the beach is somwehere on the left side of the castle in seddu-elbahr!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 1 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2006 If we`re looking south from there, what`s that flat land? That should be sea, shouldn`t it? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 Dear Pals, I have checked several works and no "Halil Bey Tepe" to be found ... There is a Halileli (asian side - near the Intepe battery), there is a Hilal Sırtı (near Alçıtepe). eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 Tuna's suggestion could be correct ... but in that case the distance between the soldiers and the building(s) should only be 500 metres. To me it looks alot more ... Is there anyone who can confirm the distance because I do realise that due to lack of depht on these pics distances are not what they seem. eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 1 June , 2006 Author Share Posted 1 June , 2006 I think I might have been misinterpreting this. I took that to be a flat expanse of land top left, but is it actually sea? If it`s any help, here`s a shot I took from the top of the cliff overlooking W beach, looking north. This is the Turkish machine gunners` view of the Lancashire Fusiliers` landing beach. I think it may be it? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gumbirsingpun Posted 1 June , 2006 Share Posted 1 June , 2006 is it actually sea? ,umm, in the eyes of me,it is there is no question of the place being W beach, heres a map of W Beach,there is no any bulding signs shown on it, tis beyond a shadow of a doubt that the place is somewhere close to the fort, regards tuna ps:eric,Halileli is the name of a village Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 2 June , 2006 Share Posted 2 June , 2006 (edited) After the RND feint off the Bulair Lines was spotted for such by von Sanders he ordered the 7th Division south to reinforce the Helles front. I think that they reached Maidos on the 27th April and were opposite the French Lines on the allied right flank early in May. Such a position would allow them to name a hill there after one of their officers. My guess is that Travers is talking about somewhere around from what you and I would call the 'southeastern' corner and perhaps even more inside the Dardanelles Straits than the Aegean Sea. I have the 2001 hardback edition of Travers' 'Gallipoli 1915' and he has used another photograph also taken from Halil Bey Hill for the front of the dust cover. This photograph is credited to the General Staff Archives, Ankara and Travers has the foll info on it "Turkish soldiers firing from Halil Bey Hill towards Gelik Lake" Does Gelik Lake ring any bells and can it help us identify Halil Bey Hill? Is there anything arround the mouths of either the Kereves Dere or perhaps even the Chomak Dere which might fit? Regards Michael D.R. Edited 2 June , 2006 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plummed Goose Posted 8 June , 2006 Share Posted 8 June , 2006 Dear Pals, I have been out (and about) in Helles today and be assured this picture is not taken in ANY of the locations we previously discussed. The topography does not fit ... Futhermore Gelik Lake does not ring a bell to me (or any of the bells of my knowledgable friends here). I think we have to accept that this picture was taken -as previously mentioned- somewhere in the peninsula (or even beyond) and -to me 90 % sure- BEFORE or even after the actual fighting here. My guess of the Asian side is just a guess and has no foundation at all, it is just that the topography there COULD be suitable but then again I'd have to go there and look in detail. But a theory with some probablity (in other words which makes sense) would be that is was taken in the Bolayır area: Take the fact that the 7th was based in bolayır it might have been taken before (March - sunny but rather cool day) the campaign for propoganda purposes ... I am trying to find out whether there is a lake by the name of Gelik in the area (and even in Turkey for that matter) ... Probably it is just a large pool of water if not we would (should) know of it ... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 13 June , 2006 Share Posted 13 June , 2006 Eric, Thanks for following-up on this one Phil might be advised to contact Prof Travers if he wants to get to the bottom of this one regards Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted 15 June , 2006 Share Posted 15 June , 2006 Now this is a real puzzling one isn't it! The topography seems a little high for the V beach area, perhaps not for Cape Helles though if looking toward W beach...hummm But check out the buildings - beyond the white house is a grey, vertical rectangular structure as well... And to throw in a twist to it all... Here is Gelik, a town in the mountains, now where's the lake? Gelik, Turkey, try this link for a map location - http://www.fallingrain.com/world/TU/0/Gelik.html Latitude 40.8667 Longitude 32.9333 Altitude (feet) 4750 Lat (DMS) 40° 52' 0N Long (DMS) 32° 55' 60E Altitude (meters) 1447 I've placed an email to Tim Travers asking for help/explanation, let you know as soon as I hear. Cheers, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 15 June , 2006 Share Posted 15 June , 2006 This photo is also in the Aust War Memorial collection reference H13571 TURKISH LANDWEHR ON GALLIPOLI.(Purchased from German War Museum) Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted 15 June , 2006 Share Posted 15 June , 2006 OKay, here are two replies from author Tim Travers regarding the photo. quote: "Brian - thanks for your email - I will have to dig out my photo collection to see if I can pinpoint the location. It is in the Helles area - but this is one of the photos that came from the General Staff Archives in Ankara, and their indexing and descriptions are very weak or absent. (In addition, I was only allowed to copy 50% of the photos there). However, it is named after Col Halil Bey, so it must be in the 7 Ottoman Division area. Brian - now I've located the original xerox of the Halil Bey photo from the General Staff archives in Ankara [vol 3, photo #20], and there is a subtitle to the photo, which reads that the Turkish soldiers are firing toward Gelik Lake (its possible that my translator means Celik Lake). As I've mentioned Halil Bey commanded 7 Division, which in early May 1915 attacked in the centre of the Turkish line in Helles, so Halil Bey Hill is possibly in that centre to eastern area, and it may be that my map caption of the south eastern _edge_ is mistaken. But there is no date to the photo, so it could be after or before the Allied landings. I've looked at the Australian war memorial archive holdings of Turkish maps, but Halil Bey Hill doesn't show up. If you could get hold of a large scale map of the peninsula and find Gelik lake (or Celik lake), then you would have found the location of the photo. I'm sorry but this is the best I can do. Cheers, Tim." Unfortunately the water is still muddy... Cheers, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eceabat Posted 16 June , 2006 Share Posted 16 June , 2006 Hi pals, Just a couple of points raised by Brian’s posting and the comments from Tim Travers. Travers says that the photo is of men from the 7th Ottoman Division, all well and good except that the 7th was posted around the town of Gelibolu (Gallipoli) below the Gulf of Saros at the head of the peninsula on the 25th of April and so did not face any of the Allied landings, being brought up as reserves a couple of days later as part of the 15th corps. If I recall, the photo was credited to Carl Muhlman, a staff officer with Liman von Sanders, who had his headquarters at Gelibolu. It is possible the shot was taken in the Saros area prior to the landings. There is definitely no Gelik or Celik Lake in the Helles sector on the peninsula, and for that matter looking at more detailed maps of the region I can’t a lake of either name anywhere in the area of operations of the Ottoman 5th army. Nor does the area look like anywhere in Helles that I know of. This doesn’t answer the question of where or when the photo was taken but might help unmuddy the waters about where and when it wasn’t. For myself, the photo looks remarkably staged and the landscape looks innocent of any real military activity, such as shell holes, litter etc. I think this was a propaganda shot taken well behind the lines. I'm none too sure of those startlingly white overcoats many of the men are wearing either. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 16 June , 2006 Share Posted 16 June , 2006 My thanks to Brian for contacting Prof Travers and to the Prof for his replies I have a couple of his books, I admire the scholarship and refer to them regularly however I am surprised at his e-mail's first para quote - It is in the Helles area - but this is one of the photos that came from the General Staff Archives in Ankara, and their indexing and descriptions are very weak or absent. (In addition, I was only allowed to copy 50% of the photos there). However, it is named after Col Halil Bey, so it must be in the 7 Ottoman Division area. I am sorry but, to me this sounds far less certain and less convincing than I would have expected from the author of the book which reproduces the picture(s) If this sort of speculation is fair game then allow me try out the following idea upon you Hunter Western Hill is named after the old so-and-so who survived but Doughty-Wylie Hill is named after the Lt-Col who did not question: Was the hill named for Col Halil Bey while he was alive or after he was dead? and is this the same officer (allowing for a mis-print of his name) who is mentioned by the Holts on p.229 of their guide under Turkish Military Cemetery, Antafarta: "On the banks of each side of the road are plots in which are the graves of Lieutenant -Colonel (Yarbay) Halit Bey, Commander of the 20th Regiment, 7th Division..............killed at Bomba Sirti (Mortar Ridge).......on 11th August." Could Halil Bey Hill (or Halit Bey Hill) be in the Antafarta area and could the lake refered to be that which we know as the Salt Lake? Comments please Michael D.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 16 June , 2006 Share Posted 16 June , 2006 Hunter Western Hill is named after the old so-and-so who survived but Doughty-Wylie Hill is named after the Lt-Col who did not Comments please Michael D.R. Michael Cannot answer the questions. But, perhaps Hunter Western Hill is on the Aegean side of Hunter Easton Hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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