Scottish Rifles, Cameronians

[Malcolm]

With regard to religion 2nd Battalion Cameronians ( Scottish Rifles) had several Catholics killed in action in WW1, at least three in my localaity.

Aye

Malcolm

[Tom A McCluskey]

Malcolm,

It is a fair point and I am happy to be stood corrected

Aye

Tom McC

[barrieduncan]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for resurrecting the thread - although given my current job, I cringe that I started it in the first place

From what I have read, the titles Cameronians and Scottish Rifles were still very much in use up to and during the Great War. The 1st Battalion were nearly always referred to as the Cameronians, while the 2nd were generally known by the Scottish Rifles. The Territorial units seem to be have generally accepted as X Bn, The Scottish Rifles.

I think within the Regiment, this was probably observed more stringently than by outsiders - especially after the First World War and the lead up to the Second. Another book by Sir John Baynes, Morale (well worth a read) makes it quite clear that, pre 1914 at least, there was a recognised difference between the two battalions, and the two titles were not seen to be universal at that time (within the Regiment at least).

In addition to Catholics, i know for certain that there were several Jewish men who served within the Regiment, both before and during the Great War - in both battalions. Many people are surprised that non-presbyterians would be allowed into the ranks of the 1st Bn (Cameronians), but I know for sure, even pre-1914, there were several Jewish and Catholics within the ranks - not to mention several officers who were Church of England.

Barrie

[dycer]

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QUOTE(Rob B @ May 8 2006, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tom,

You mentioned the Cams had their badge at the old SID (Glencorse) when I was Platoon Commanding there in 82-84 the badge on the gate was the Royal Scots as it had been I think the Barracks for the 8th Bn RS. Where do you think the badge was?

Cheers,

Rob

Rob,

I'm a bit late in replying to this but this is a quote from the Book I referred to earlier "Scots of the Line"

"And well might Glencorse brood in its unwonted emptiness.Its family was numbered in tens of thousands.Decade after decade it reared its sons,and watched them go out to represent its house,in peace and war,in sport and strategy,in far flung centres of great events or outposts of the Empire.Then it was the proud and honoured home of the oldest family of its kind-The Royal Scots,The Royal Regiment,the illustrious First of Foot,the senior regiment of the British Army.

Today the family has a new seat.In these callous times sentiment and the intimate things must always,it seems,yield priority to utility and expediency.The authorities decreed that Dreghorn,with its proximity to training areas and rifle ranges,was a more suitable centre for producing soldiers.Dreghorn must become the new home of the Regiment."

Although written in the 1950's the words still ring true today.

George

[BeppoSapone]

In addition to Catholics, i know for certain that there were several Jewish men who served within the Regiment, both before and during the Great War - in both battalions. Many people are surprised that non-presbyterians would be allowed into the ranks of the 1st Bn (Cameronians), but I know for sure, even pre-1914, there were several Jewish and Catholics within the ranks - not to mention several officers who were Church of England.

Barrie

I recently posted a link from "Nearly There" by Johnny Frost, of Arnhem fame, see below.

When he joined the Cameronians at Glasgow in the early 1930s all six of his intake of subalterns were English.

[BeppoSapone]

I have extracted this from a post I made during the "What Did the Scottish Do During the War?" thread:

"I think I have mentioned in passing the nationality of the subalterns, who arrived at Maryhill Barracks and joined the Cameronians along with Johnny Frost, of later Arnhem fame, in September 1932.

'Not one of us was a real, bona fide Scot. David Jebb, who had passed out of Sandhurst very near the top, was a Northumbrian. Eric Baume, who had come up from the ranks and also passed out near the top, was patently English, although his parents lived in Renfrewshire. Critchley was from the South Coast. Featherstonhaugh was a Gloucestershire man and my family's roots were in Essex. Our last but not least member, bespectacled Gus Coldstream, was a university entrant who was a real eccentric but certainly not Scottish'."

[Tom A McCluskey]

Beppo Sappone,

No offence fella and please don't be offended.

But Johnny Frost, of Arnhem Fame, what has he go to do with the First World War?

Aye

Tom McC

[BeppoSapone]

Beppo Sappone,

No offence fella and please don't be offended.

But Johnny Frost, of Arnhem Fame, what has he go to do with the First World War?

Aye

Tom McC

None taken Tom, but parts of the rest of this thread go right up to the disbandment, and possibly beyond in terms of cap badges outside barracks.

What I think my quote is saying is that by 1930s the Cameronians were not, in origin, simply "a crowd of Rangers supporters". Johnny Frost does go on to say that the ORs were Scottish, but being southern English, he is not too bothered about their religion. I do not know the religion, if any, of my friends and have never thought to ask them.

I also wonder what was happening in 1932 that every officer from Sandhurst who joined that battalion was English, and I thought someone here might know.

[Tom A McCluskey]

That's got a laugh out of a Dundee United supporter, and the Rangers supporter to my left

Aye

Tom McC

[Rob Bulloch]

Hello to the Forum.

I thought that there might be some interest in this. A Quote from the Historical records of the 79th Cameron Highlanders. "A letter of service dated 17th August, 1793 was granted to Alan Cameron Esq., of Erracht, in the County of Inverness, for the purpose of raising a Highland Regimentof foot, to be numbered 79, and designated the"Cameronian Volunteers." This desigation was subsequently changed to "Cameron Highlanders," "Cameronian" being a name applied to a religious sect of Lowlanders" I am not saying that they pre date the Cameronians as they can be traced back to 1689.

Cheers Rob.

[dycer]

Not sure if this helps.From the Book I've quoted from earlier.

"In 1881 the 26th and 90th were amalgamated to form The Cameronians(Scottish Rifles)-the only rifle regiment in Scotland."

George

[Andre Chissel]

This post makes interesting reading !

Question, how were WW1 medals to the Cameronians inscribed ?

My grandfather'sare inscribed "SCO RIF".

Does that mean he was 2nd Battalion, Territorial or what ?

In other words were 1st Battalion Cameronian/non TF soldiers medal's during the First World War inscribed "CAM"

Just curious but it may tell me whether my grandfather went to war with a Regular or TF Cameronia(Scottish Rifles) battalion

Andre Chissel

[barrieduncan]

I'd say by far that most of the medals to the Regiment from the First World War that I have seen are impressed SCO:RIF or some varition of that. There might be odd one I've seen impressed CAMERONIAN, but I can't recall for sure if those are from World War One or later. Strangely, the majority of medal index cards to soldiers of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), regardless of the battalion they served in, are recorded as "Scottish Rifles".

Barrie

P.S. I missed some of the previous discussions on this thread from 2007. BeppoSapone asked what was happening in 1932 that led to all the officers joining that battalion being from England. I can't be sure, but I think some of it might be to do with the fact an officer of the Regiment had been serving as instructors at Sandhurst from the early 1920s and would have tried to convince the best candidates to join The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). I'm not sure of the numbers involved but it's probably safe to say that then, as it probably is now, that Englishmen outweighted Scots at Sandhurst by a considerable margin. The recruiting done by these officers on secondment to the staff colleges paid off though; the Regiment was represented by an extremely high class of officer from the 1930s onwards, several of which went on to high rank during the Second World War and beyond.

[Andre Chissel]

Thanks Barrie

It was a long shot but worth pursuing.

Andre

I'd say by far that most of the medals to the Regiment from the First World War that I have seen are impressed SCO:RIF or some varition of that. There might be odd one I've seen impressed CAMERONIAN, but I can't recall for sure if those are from World War One or later. Strangely, the majority of medal index cards to soldiers of The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), regardless of the battalion they served in, are recorded as "Scottish Rifles".

Barrie

P.S. I missed some of the previous discussions on this thread from 2007. BeppoSapone asked what was happening in 1932 that led to all the officers joining that battalion being from England. I can't be sure, but I think some of it might be to do with the fact an officer of the Regiment had been serving as instructors at Sandhurst from the early 1920s and would have tried to convince the best candidates to join The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). I'm not sure of the numbers involved but it's probably safe to say that then, as it probably is now, that Englishmen outweighted Scots at Sandhurst by a considerable margin. The recruiting done by these officers on secondment to the staff colleges paid off though; the Regiment was represented by an extremely high class of officer from the 1930s onwards, several of which went on to high rank during the Second World War and beyond.