barrieduncan Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 Probably a silly question but I'm curious - were the Scottish Rifles and the Cameronians seperate bodies at one time (Great War era)? I ask because I was looking through a regimental history 'The Fifth Scottish Rifles 1914-1919' and in the section describing the attack on High Wood, they mention, on more than one occasion, the Cameronians as though they were a seperate unit. Example: 'They almost overwhelmed the Cameronians and ourselves [5th Scottish Rifles]' Also in the order of battle at the back of Peter Hart's 'The Somme', under the 33rd Division, 19th Brigade, he has 1/Cameronians, 5/Scottish Rifles. I always thought the Cameronians were the Scottish Rifles - am I missing something really obvious? Cheers, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 I stand to be corrected but IIRC only the regular battalions of the regiment referred to themselves as Cameronians; TF and service battalions were referred to as Scottish Rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 I'm certain that the Cameronians & the Scottish Rifles are the same regiment, formed in 1881 from a merger of the 26th (Cameronians) & the 90th (Perthshire Volunteers Light Infantry) Regiments of Foot. Link to the Long Long Trail and one to another website dealing with the history of British regiments. According to this website, the 156th Brigade of the 52nd (Lowland) Division was called the Scottish Rifles. It originally consisted of 4 Cameronian battalions, but 2 of these were subsequently replaced by Royal Scots. Could it be that Scotttish Rifles refers to units serving in this Brigade & Cameronians to other battalions of the same regiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 I had been led to believe that the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) was one regiment, however, The 1st battalion were refered to as The Cameronians and the others were refered to as Scottish Rifles. However, I can't remember from where! I'll have a look later and get back. Roxy PS As far as my family are concerned, my GGF was a Cameronian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbo Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 The Cameronian/Scottish Rifle battalions in the 156th Brigade were territorials, which would back up Squirrel's answer. This is specualtion but the ancestry of the Territorials in the Rifle Volunteers might have led to them preferring the Rifles title? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 4 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 4 May , 2006 I'm tempted to agree with the theory that regular bn's were Cameronians and TF or Service bn's were Scottish Rifles. I had no idea that they differentiated between the two names, learn something new everyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 In the book Captain Jack's Diary, he refers to the Regular Battalions as Cameronians and TF and Service Battalions as Scottish Rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 The original "Cameronians" were the 26th of Foot. The "Perthshire Volunteers" were the 90th. The Cardwell reforms merged the two into one regiment which was referred to as "The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)" However, the two battalions apparently disliked the merger at first and therefore the 1st Bn always referred to themselves as the "Cameronians" whereas the 2nd referred to themselves as "The Scottish Rifles." Both battalions wore the same uniform of course, the rifle green doublet, black piping and the '68 pattern shako and both had trews of the Douglas clan. The dislike went so far as the two battalions wearing different cap badges, and the fake "SR" in the bugle horn is often offered on eBay. (Genuine!!!!! of course!) Apparently, after WWI, the animosity ceased (probably due to the death of most of the former members) and the two functioned together more smoothly. Given the choice of amalgamation with another Scottish regiment or disbandment, the regiment chose to disband in 1968 and thus into history, sadly for the lovers of tradition, went the active duty regiment. As to Kitchener battalion titles in WWI, I believe they probably referred to themselves as Cameronians or Scottish Rifles according to the whim of their colonels or the War Department. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 4 May , 2006 Share Posted 4 May , 2006 DrB's absolutely right - the 26th were formed from God-fearing Covenanters: Protestants, at the time of the Catholic 'difficulties' in the highlands. As such, they were ever aware of unpleasant surprises, and carried arms to Kirk. The 90th (aka The Perthshire Grey-breeks) were (allegedly) formed from ex-inmates of the Glasgow prison service; as such, possibly none too God-fearing! Put the two together in 1881, and you can see the likelihood of discord. I suspect that the TF Bns were Cameronian or SR as it suited, ditto the Service Bns. I wonder if TF Bns took their preference from their Volunteer days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 5 May , 2006 Share Posted 5 May , 2006 Barrie, like the Black Watch (Royal Highlanders [the official title]), the Scottish Rifles had a colloquial/nick-name that they were nearly always referred to: 'The Cameronians'. As a rifle regiment (Scottish Rifles) they had no colours and their uniform, buttons, headdress; and hackle colour of rifles, reflected this. As a regiment, they were fairly restrictive in their recruitment policy which stemmed from their presbyterian covenanting background. They recruited no catholics & were entitled to bear arms in the kirk (the only regiment in the British Army that could, and had an armed guard outside the kirk of Scotland during church service). Their recruitment policy (which remained in place till disbandment) along with other issues were part of what led to their demise in 1968. Because they took disbandment (as opposed to amalgamation), their cap badge remained outside the Scottish Division Depot at Glencorse till recent years. Their black hackle remained through the Cameronians TA and now lives on through the 1st Bn RRS (Royal Scots/KOSBs) [can't see the connection between these battalions and the Cameronians myself] The Scottish Rifles are the Cameronians, so suggesting that a particular battalion were Rifles or Cameronians after the Cardwell reforms of 1881 is a misnomer. Rivalry from one battalion to another, whether regular first battalion or second; Territorial Force or New Army, was commonplace and credentials would be questioned/ridiculed (as in any regiment. for example the 2nd Bn BW were referred to as the 73rd for years after Cardwell - this did not stop them being the 2nd Bn Black Watch) Anyway Hope this helps Yours Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB64 Posted 6 May , 2006 Share Posted 6 May , 2006 They recruited no catholics & were entitled to bear arms in the kirk (the only regiment in the British Army that could, and had an armed guard outside the kirk of Scotland during church service). I believe this policy wasnt upheld during wartime - when I asked a WW2 veteran of the 2nd Battalion he said it was a very mixed unit, Catholics, Jews etc. I also asked him about the distinction between Cameronian & Scottish Rifles that I had heard about and he told me during his time with the Battlion (at least 3 years) he was never aware of a distinction amongst the battalion of who was one or the other - he and all others were Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). Although I know this is a bit after the time period being discussed. Alistair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownag Posted 6 May , 2006 Share Posted 6 May , 2006 I was always under the impression that between 1881 and 1918 the 1st Bn only were known as the Cameronians from the old 26th Regiment. Even though the official title was Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) All the other battalions were Scottish Rifles. After the First World War until 1968 Cameronians was used by all battalions. When it disbanded it's recruiting area went to the KOSB. The 5th T.F. bn was the senior territorial bn of the regiment and I've only seen it refererred to as Scottish Rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 7 May , 2006 Share Posted 7 May , 2006 Brownag, After Cardwell, a regular soldiers colours service would be 7 years, this would thin down considerably any blood from Perthshire. It was designed this way so that the majority of soldiers would not be benefactors of a pension. Some would stay on and make to Warrant Officer or a senior Senior Non Commisioned Officer. But one thing is for sure, few Perthshire men were in the Scottish Rifles after 1900. Because of this, finding soldiers from Perthshire in the Scottish Rifles/Cameronians, at the start of the war (1914) would be almost non-existant, as this regiment (as part of the Cardwell reforms) recruited from Lanarkshire. Much the same as finding many Lanarkshire men (99th of Foot - bizarrely amalgamated with the 62nd of Foot, the Wiltshire Regiment) in the Duke of Edinburgh's Wiltshire Regiment at the same period. It simply did not happen. Various Territorial Force Officers would almost condescend their own regiments to their parent local regiment. After Haldane, it would often be the case that some of the previous rifle volunteers/militia would be quite modest in their attachment to their new parent regiment. For example, 4th Black Watch CO did not have his men wearing the red hackle until Major Wauchope 'strongly urged' that all battalions of the Black Watch wore the red hackle. What I am getting at here is that it was often the case that the Territorials were modest in assuming the same status as their regular parent unit. However, it was also the case that their parent regular unit was usually very proud to have them along as part of the same regiment, representing the same traditions and values that they hold dear. Maybe because of this a TF officer referred to the a regular battalion of Scottish Rifles as the 'Cameronians'. Whereas, to any soldier, the Scottish Rifles were the Cameronians; much the same as the 2nd Royal North British Dragoons were referred as the Scots Greys. Regardless of that, all battalions had the same letters on the shoulder title (even with TF nomenclature): SR. Anyway off to bed now Aye Tom McC PS - AB64, the religious choice of the Cameronians I cannot be sure of with the TF and New Army battalions. But it was one that the remaining regular battalion maintained up to disbandment. That aside, they had a reputation of being a tough and robust battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 7 May , 2006 Share Posted 7 May , 2006 PS - their official title is the Scottish Rifles Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 May , 2006 Share Posted 7 May , 2006 In August 2003 I posted a question about the Cameronians. In the thread the difference between "Cameronians" and "Scottish Rifles" was discussed by a few members. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 7 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2006 Thanks for all the help guys, it wasn't a hugely important query but it did get me wondering. I felt that I should have known after being in the Cameronians as a cadet for several years (a cadet as in the ACF by the way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownag Posted 7 May , 2006 Share Posted 7 May , 2006 Brownag, ... But one thing is for sure, few Perthshire men were in the Scottish Rifles after 1900.... Tom Not quite sure why this comment was directed at me? I'm also still pretty sure the official name in 1881 and 1914 contained the word 'Cameronians'. It's not easy to find out for sure on a Sunday afternoon! I'll have to try and get to the Central Library this week. Regards Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 This is from a Book(Scots of the Line) written shortly after WW2. "In 1881 the 26th and the 90th were amalgamated to form The Cameronians(Scottish Rifles)-the only rifle regiment in Scotland." The Book does however use both titles quite freely e.g. "The 2nd Cameronians went into battle(Neuve Chapelle-10 March 1915) burning with high endeavour-----------In that first gallant sortie,nearly every officer of the Scottish Rifles,including the Commanding Officer,Lt Col.Bliss,was killed or wounded." In a reference to WW2-In September 1944,the 9th Cameronians,entered the outskirts of Comines,on the Franco-Belgian frontier." George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 There is a jolly little song about them: 'Have you seen the Cameronians?', sung, amongst others, by Kenneth McKellar. It is not especially striking, apart from one verse, which manages to produce a rhyming and scanning couplet, emphasising their South Lanarkshire origins: People cheer, wherever they go; Far off lands of Lesmahagow...' what an achievement. It is like getting something to rhyme with rhubarb. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 Tom, You mentioned the Cams had their badge at the old SID (Glencorse) when I was Platoon Commanding there in 82-84 the badge on the gate was the Royal Scots as it had been I think the Barracks for the 8th Bn RS. Where do you think the badge was? Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 Rob, Are you not thinking about the big Royal Scots monument in the camp. What I was on about was was the sign outside the main gate when it was the Scottish Division depot. I am pretty sure it had all of the cap badges of the regular battalions of the Division, plus the Cameronians cap badge on it. I believe it was because there was still a company of Cameronians in the Lowland Brigade, (possibly D Company) of one of the Lowland Battalions. Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB64 Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 I was lent a copy of the video of the disbanding service and in that they said that from then on, each anniversary of that day (14th May or something like that) all the other Scottish Regiments would do something to mark their passing - does anyone know if their is a toast in the mess or something is said to mark the day? my guess is it was probably a statement made with good intent but that died off after a few years - although I would love to hear otherwise. Alistair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 8 May , 2006 Share Posted 8 May , 2006 Alistair, Have a look at this link: http://www.community-council.org.uk/Dougla...x.asp?pageid=81 Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 1 February , 2007 Share Posted 1 February , 2007 Barrie, Just resurrecting this thread I have just been having a look at Soldiers of Scotland by John Baynes (with John Laffin). It has some interesting points about the amalgamation of the 26th & 90th. John Baynes, was himself in the Cameronians as the 2IC of the battalion, and transferred to the Queen's Own Highlanders, in 1968, when the regiment took disbandment. Anyway, page 160, on amalgamation: ...The two could hardly have been more dissimilar in historical origins or in character. Because of this, even the new name was unable to produce harmony. Right up to 1939 the 1st Battalion used the name Cameronians, whilst the 2nd Battalion were always Scottish Rifles. However, General J L Jack, in his excellent book, does not seem to discriminate; possibly due to being the thorough professional that he is. In this, he refers to both regular battalions as the Cameronians (he served in both) Page 107 - Jack goes to the 2nd Cameronians Page 108 - Mention of the 'Perthshire Grey Breeks' Page 117 - the 90th, 2nd Cameronians Page 246 - Jack refers to the 6th Cameronians Page 246 - Jack refers to the 5/6th Scottish Rifles Maybe Jack was trying to mitigate a prevailing rivalry, as he served in both battalions, but on the whole he generally referred to them all as Cameronians; with the exception being page 246 when he refers to the 5/6th as the Scottish Rifles. Anyway, hope this helps Aye Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Jock Posted 1 February , 2007 Share Posted 1 February , 2007 Rob, Are you not thinking about the big Royal Scots monument in the camp. What I was on about was was the sign outside the main gate when it was the Scottish Division depot. I am pretty sure it had all of the cap badges of the regular battalions of the Division, plus the Cameronians cap badge on it. I believe it was because there was still a company of Cameronians in the Lowland Brigade, (possibly D Company) of one of the Lowland Battalions. Aye Tom McC Hi Rob & Tom The Cameronians badge was on the sign. 1972-74. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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