mercantile marine reserve

[Mark in Staffs]

I'm looking at the loss of HMS Viknor at the moment. Have I got this correct, the men of the MMR on board at the time (January 1915) would have been her civilian crew in peacetime when she was the cruise ship The Viking? They were then conscripted or volunteered for wartime service on what was now an armed merchant cruiser supplemented by RN/RNVR men for the "military" side of things, manning the guns, boarding suspect vessels etc? 

 

 

[KizmeRD]

72 of those who perished aboard HMS Viknor are listed by CWGC as MMR ratings (firemen, artisans, cooks, stewards and clerks). Most likely they were serving on the steamship Viking at the time she was requisitioned for war service, signing T.124 agreements.

Remainder of those who died in the sinking were a mixture of RN, RNR, RNVR, Newfoundland Naval Reserve and RMLI, plus one civilian canteen manager.

There was no conscription into the navy, the MMR crew members would have been free to sign T.124 forms if they so wished, but risked being unemployed if they didn’t. Most were happy to serve their country in this manner, even if living with naval ideas about discipline took a little getting used to.

MB

[Mark in Staffs]

Thanks everyone. It has rather complicated my quest to name all civilians killed in WW I, I thought I had 1914 pretty well nailed down, now there's the MMR dead to add on, luckily the CWGC has them listed. 

[KizmeRD]

The hybrid status of MMR men is indeed a tough topic for most people to get their head round (even those with interest in naval matters).

The CWGC lists all professional mercantile marine seafarers entered into government service under special naval engagements (Form T.124 and its variants) for the specific purpose of crewing fleet auxiliaries as ‘Mercantile Marine Reserve’ whether they were crewing commissioned warships such as OTRANTO, or other non-commissioned ‘Merchant’ Fleet Auxiliaries). Also interesting is that the war medals belonging to such men are usually engraved ‘MFA’ (not MMR) to indicate the unit they served with (perhaps because the MMR was only officially established in 1916).

The sort of ships such men served on included vessels like HMS Otranto (used initially as an auxiliary cruiser, then later in the war as a troop ship), hospital ships, minelayers, seaplane carriers, armed boarding steamers, kite-balloon ships, minesweepers, salvage tugs and boom defence vessels.

Whilst on active service it would be unfair to consider them as anything less than proper servicemen (like other members of the crew), even though they hadn’t received any formal naval training. (A number of the officers on HMS Otranto had similar employment history to the ratings, yet they were granted temporary Royal Naval Reserve commissions - so the line gets very blurred).

MB

 

[Mark in Staffs]

I'm trying not to think of them as civilians in uniform. 

[Mark in Staffs]

To go back to my initial subject - presumably Germany provided the UK with the names of UK civilians who died in internment camps between 1914 and 1918 and details of their burial too. If so can these be accessed online in any way, Ancestry or Find My Past perhaps? Or can they only be accessed at Kew? 

[KizmeRD]

Sorry, but I thought that HMS Viknor sank with all hands off the coast of Ireland - are you suggesting that some of the crew were in fact taken back to Germany and died in Prisoner of War Camp? (International Red Cross kept the records).

MB

Edit - On reflection, I guess you must be talking about British Mercantile Marine internees in general (not HMS Viknor). Most of these were held in Ruhrleben Camp just outside Berlin. Up until the USA entered the war, the American Ambassador to Germany looked after the interests of British civilian internees, and thereafter he handed the responsibility over to the Dutch. There’s a website detailing names of all civilian internees https://ruhleben.tripod.com/id4.html 

And Marcus Bateman compiled a list of those who died (around 60 of the 5,000 or so held there) - this used to be available online.

TNA also has the transcripts MT 9/1094.

 

 

Edited 13 February by KizmeRD

[Mark in Staffs]

yes, all civilians. The Ruhleben site you mention is very good, but doesn't list everyone held there, hundreds of names are missing. Marcus Bateman's site sounds the best, if I could find it! 

[Dominion-of-the-North]

On 14/02/2024 at 05:22, Mark in Staffs said:

.... Marcus Bateman's site sounds the best, if I could find it! 

Try this link:  https://ruhleben.tripod.com/index.html

Cheers,

Glen,

In Our Dominion of the North

[KizmeRD]

Try also…

https://spw-surrey.com/MT9/

MB

[Mark in Staffs]

Thanks, I've seen both of the two mentioned but there are still gaps and omissions.