mercantile marine reserve

[Guest jacrien]

Can anyone help a new member by explaining what the Mercantile Marine Reserve was during WW 1.

Also what were the abreviations for the various ranks or jobs in that service.

thanks.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

That unit is a bit of a mystery, no one i've spoken to can trace records relating to it, other than the WW1 medal roll. But have a look in BT 350, 349 and 348 on microficshe at the National Archives. They give details of ships that merchant seamen served on 1918-1942. BT 350 provides a photo too!

Ranks for the MMR seem to parallel those of the merchant marine: trimmer, deck hand etc.

[joseph]

Hi,

Not an easy task maybe this will help.

ADM 171/130 “British Mercantile Marine Reserve Medal Rolls”

Information contained on Roll

Name

Rank

Number (or ship)

Medals Earned

How Issued

Remarks

This site may help http://www.barnettresearch.freeserve.co.uk/medal.htm

Regards Charles

[historydavid]

A Royal Commission was set up in 1858 to enquire into the best means of manning the Navy. They proposed in their report the substitution "of a system of defence, voluntary and effective, for untrained compulsory service."

They were of the opinion that from the Merchant Service could be formed a force of "thorough seamen, trained in gunnery, and qualified for immediate service on board a ship of war."

An Act was passed accordingly in August 1859 giving the Admiralty power to raise "Royal Naval Reserve Volunteers, not to exceed 30,000 men."

Towards the end of the century the Admiralty established the Royal Fleet Reserve consisting of RN retirees, who, in return for a retainer, agreed to keep them efficient for service afloat.

In 1906 a new system of training the men in the Royal Naval Reserve was introduced which required them to embark in the first year for three months, and thereafter for one month every alternate year.

In 1910 a trawler section of the Royal Naval Reserve was formed, consisting of Skippers, second hands, deck hands, and engineroom hands of trawlers.

As a result of these efforts, at the start of the war in 1914, the Admiralty controlled a Naval Reserve of upwards of 18,000 trained officers and men of the Mercantile Marine and Fishing Industry, besides nearly 24,000 officers and men of the Royal Fleet Reserve.

In the summer of 1914 the Admiralty had at its disposal, in addition to the regular persoonel of the Royal Navy with its own reserve, not only 18,000 RNR officers and men trained in war duties, but the whole of the personnel of the Mercantile Marine, consisting of some 170,000 men of British birth, a larger number than at any previos date, together with 100,000 fishermen.

At the beginning of August 1914 the strength of Naval personnel was 147,667; in November 1918, when the Armistice was signed, it had been increased by some 200,000 officers and men, in addition to making good a wastage of about 80,000. It was largely from the 170,000 men of British birth belonging to the Mercantile Marine and the 100,000 men employed in fishing around the coasts of the United Kingdom that the required recruits had been obtained. The history of the Merchasnt Navy's part in the war reveals the manner in which these men aquitted themselves in face of dangers unprecented in variety and character.

The above is taken from The Merchant Navy by Archibald Hurd, Vol 1.

I hope this goes at least some way in explaining what the Mercantile Reserve was.

Best wishes

David

[historydavid]

Welcome to the forum jacrien, keep on posting those intersting questions.

Best wishes

David

[chrisharley9]

Grave of a MMR sailor

Name: BRYANT

Initials: G E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Mate

Regiment: Mercantile Marine Reserve

Unit Text: H.M. Drifter "True Reward,"

Age: 49

Date of Death: 30/08/1917

Additional information: Husband of Alice Bryant.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Opposite entrance.

Cemetery: MUTFORD (ST. ANDREW) CHURCHYARD

Chris

[Guest jacrien]

Grave of a MMR sailor

Name: BRYANT

Initials: G E

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Mate

Regiment: Mercantile Marine Reserve

Unit Text: H.M. Drifter "True Reward,"

Age: 49

Date of Death: 30/08/1917

Additional information: Husband of Alice Bryant.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: Opposite entrance.

Cemetery: MUTFORD (ST. ANDREW) CHURCHYARD

Chris

[historydavid]

Chris, that is interesting.

The "True Reward" is not listed in British Vessels Lost at Sea either as an Admiralty Auxuiiary or as a Fishing Boat.

Do you have any info on her loss?

Best wishes

David

[per ardua per mare per terram]

My apologies jacrien for not welcoming you.

David, the problem in the admirable data is that none of the bodies that you describrd are the Mercantile Marine Reserve. The medal roll is listed separately to the RNR and so it appears to be separate, but other than the roll the paperwork (such as service records) doesn't seem to exist.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

True Reward hired as a boom tender August 1915-1919 and again as a degaussing ship May 1940 - Jan 1946. It was possible for a man to be a casualty although the ship wasn't lost!

A mate was an officer and there were registered in the mid 19C. so there'll be some details at Kew.

Edited 29 April , 2006 by per ardua per mare per terram

[historydavid]

per adua

Did you read my post?

All I can say is that the Hurd volumes state that they are a History of the Great War Based on Official Documents and were written by Direction of the Historical Section of the Committee of Imperial Defence.

That being the case it seems reasonable to assume that they are factual.

Best wishes

David

[kin47]

Hello

Bryant's death was due to illness.

All best

don

[joseph]

Jac,

When war broke out a number of mercantile marine ratings were entered under what was known as “Ships’ Agreement T. 124," and by this they were liable only for service on board the ship for which they were engaged. In August, 1916. however, the Admiralty decided that this was hampering the commissioning of merchant ships badly, and accordingly they issued a weekly order which provided that a Mercantile Marine reserve should be established of the principal ratings which were required to fill vacancies on board the commissioned fleet auxiliaries.

These men were signed on as necessary by the mercantile marine superintendents, and the form to which they agreed was known as T. 124 X. Under this they agreed to serve in any commissioned vessel, and not, as in the original form, in one particular vessel only. This put further work on the registrars, for they had the duty of recording the movements and services of all mercantile ratings, whose discharges were re-graded as service certificates and were retained by the commanding officers of ships just as they would be retained by the captains of merchantmen in peace time.

Regards Charles

[Guest jacrien]

thanks for the extra info on the MMR

[joseph]

Hi Jac,

Have you got a name or a ship you’re interested in, there is still a lot of information to be had.

Regards Charles

[GavinH]

I have a group of medals named to the MFA (Merchant Fleet Auxilary). Can anyone tell me whether this is the same as the MMR, or if not, how it differed. Thanks

Regards

Gavin

[joseph]

Gavin,

It was the Mercantile Fleet Auxilary; this was the Royal Fleet Auxilarys' predecessor. These ships where owned by the government and manned by the RNR and Mercantile Marine, they signed agreements T 124 B and T 124 Y. IIRC they had a different pay structure and was entitled to free medical treatment and separation allowance.

Regards Charles

[GavinH]

Thanks for your helpful reply Charles. This would explain why I have been unable to find any medal rolls for the MFA.

Regards

Gavin

[historydavid]

Charles,

Are you sure the Royal Fleet Auxilarys' ships were actually owned by the Admiralty. I believe that most of them/all were requisitioned for the duration and then returned to their owners.

Best wishes

David

[joseph]

David

Was then still are now. The Admiralty purchased all manner of ships prior to and during the war. MFA was not as Im aware the Auxilary patrol which were requisitioned . But as always stand to be corrected.

Regards Charles

[healdav]

The Royal Fleet Auxiliary - with that name dates only really from post-1945. Before that it was the Merchant Fleet Auxiliary. The flag of the RFA was only approved in 1965.

The RFA today consists only of ships belonging to the RN, manned by merchant crews on standard merchant navy contracts (although with some extra clauses on security clearances). The actual store rooms on board are run by members of the Royal Naval Supply and Transport Service i.e. civil servants who usually serve for a year at a time.

However, as the RN can't afford to have enough supply ships for prolonged engagements in war time they have what are known now as STUFT - ships taken up from trade. These are as the name implies, merchant ships that are requisitioned for use as supply ships of one sort or another. Once again, where appropriate store rooms, etc are run by the RNSTS.

Interestingly, the RNSTS, although civil servants are subject to appointment without appeal to these ships in war time i.e. in the same way as any member of the armed forces. In peace time they are manned by volunteers - and a popular thing it is with the bachelors! (special allowances for service at sea, and all found).

Many RFAs today also carry a RN helicopter and crew.

So much for the merchant ships and offensive action that regularly graces these columns.

Members of the RNSTS are not just exempt from service in the armed forces in war time, but are actually forbidden even to volunteer and are forbidden to leave the service as well - no volunteering for duty with the the ministry of pensions to get out of going to sea.

In WW1 the RNSTS did not exist as such, but was split into 3 departments operating totally separately - victualling, armaments and stores (everything else). Each had its own ships with only its own ranges on board. In WW2 in the Pacific there was even, famously a ship (brewery). Today the supply ships are almost all multi-purpose (so if one gets sunk you don't lose all of some range).

At that time, weapon systems were not regarded as being supplies and came under the department that designed them for spares, etc supply nor did engineering spares. Both of these ranges had their own depots right into the 1960s. So 'stores' was timber, metal, textiles, paints, etc. and electrics.

It was only in about 1960 that it was realised that the design departments didn't have a clue about running a logistics system - famously (well in the RNSTS in my time) some items were held under 20 or 30 identities as they were held by machine or engine, etc, not by identity i.e. a 4 inch screw (equivalent) was held in a box of spares for each piece of equipment in which it was fitted. The standard order was that if an item took less than 12 months to make every requirement was to be bought from the manufacturer as it took to long to find it in store!

This chaos took several years to sort out - the engineering spares range ran to nearly 500,000 items when the RNSTS took over and this was reduced to 'only' 250,000 items by around 1970.

Some people may remember the 'Hartlebury' row in the early 1970s when it was proposed to keep the RNs electronics and engineering spares in an RAF surplus depot.

By the way, the NSTS can find its origins in the time of Alfred the Great where it was laid down how many spare bows and arrows, food and rope was to be carried by each ship.

All members of the RNSTS above the rank of civil service executive officer is listed in the Navy List, and theoretically commissioned in the RN in war time. Those members liable to capture are also put into uniform. In fact, when I was at Faslane in the late 1960s early 70 we discussed whether to go into uniform as we were so closely integrated into the Navy at that time that it was becoming embarrassing for a lot of us not to be in uniform. Sadly, and typically, the Treasury refused to spend the money on kitting us out (although strangely, they did give us a special allowance against the wishes of the unions! - probably the first time in history that that has happened).

Finally, until the founding of the RNSTS as such, the status of oil tankers was a a little anomalous. At one time they came under the engineering department and then for many years under a special fuel department, then in about 1962 they became part of what was known as DFMT (Department of Fuel, Movements and Transport). This was then incorporated into the RNSTS.

[bobbluesboy]

What actual medals were the Mercantile Marine Reserve entitled to for their service in WW1.,Would it be a Merantile Marine Medal and BWM or were they entitled to a 14/15 Star trio if they had served for long enough? Regards Bob.

[GavinH]

If members of the MMR served with the MFA, they could qualify for a Trio. I have two medal groups which consist of a 1914-15 Star, BWM, Victory and Mercantile Marine Medal. Althought both 1914-15 Trios are impressed 'M.F.A'., the medal rolls show that the recipients belonged to the MMR.

I don't remember seeing a group actually named to the MMR.

Regards

Gavin

[joseph]

Gavin,

I have not really looked at many medals so cannot comment on that, but certainly have seen headstones and memorials to MMR. Ill have another root through the regulations and see if I can come up with anything.

Regards Charles

[GavinH]

Charles,

I would be interested to hear if you do find anything. I got myself thoroughly confused when I first tried to research the medals as I couldn't find any records at all for the M.F.A. I eventually found the men listed on the M.M.R. medal rolls. Your earlier reply would seem to explain this, but I did wonder why "M.M.R." had not been used.

Regards

Gavin