Black and Tans

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

my Catholic gran was a staunch poppy wearer (her Dad's Death Penny was on permanent display in her house in Dublin and sparked my interest in WW1) and never mentioned any banning of Remembrance Day. I'm aware of some of the issues that cropped up at some Remembrance Days but I'm at a loss to find anything re them being banned.

I've been married to a "Southern" Protestant for 21 years. Never heard anything about persecution of Protestants from herself, family or peers and there have been quite a few conversations re family history and Irish history pre WW1, WW1 and beyond.

To bring this thread back to the Black and Tans, at the very end of her Catholic grandfathers witness statement is a reference to the flying column he was with giving refuge to a B&T during the Truce period and the B&T then settling in the area

http://www.bureauofm...647.pdf#page=40

He and his brother took part in the action at Knocklong. The two lads hung for this, Foley and Maher, were immediately followed by the last man to be hung by the British in Ireland - William Mitchell, a B&T who had been involved in the robbery and murder of a Protestant.

You should read Ruth Dudley Edwards in this regard, the discrimination and persecution suffered by the Southern Unionists dwarfed that of the Northern Nationalists. But then they went from 10% of the population at the time of partition to only 2% today.

I've read about Mitchell in Leeson's excellent 'The Black and Tans' (he makes the point that there was always justice for the ordinary Irish people, it was only the Republicans who had anything to fear from the B&Ts) but I'm sure we also hung an IRA terrorist in WW2?

Hear, hear. I am - as I write - listenng to this programme, linked below, on RTE's website. As the subject's father was in Boland's Mill in Easter 1916 I think it'srelevant that I pst it here. I didn't realise his mother was an English Protestant. In addition to anything else, I suspect our nations' shared histories, for good and bad, will also never be erased.

http://www.rte.ie/ra...e/finucane.html

Absolutely, if anything with the huge influx of immigrants from the South to the rest of the UK at the moment I think the bonds will grow ever stronger

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

a summary of early Remembrance in Ireland can be found at

www.greatwar.ie/ire-war-down/4eremdw.rtf

and there are some nice video clips on Pathe showing Remembrance Days in Dublin.

The Lemass family donated some material to Dublin archives earlier this year

http://www.dublincit...WarDocumentsDonatedByLemassFamily.aspx

http://cce.gno.ie/ne...oDublinCity.php

There was a nice website with the Lemass family members and their WW1 service but it eludes me at the moment.

Can't say I've read the Galway books (yet).

In fairness to Lemass he did try to get reconcilliation in the 60s but he never apologised for his actions on Bloody Sunday or elsewhere making that impossible, Unionist protesters held up signs reminding him of it when he visited Stormont. One of the reasons we're having the whole Celtic Spring is that many of the old time FF and FG politicians with family links to 1916-1923 are dying off

[Murrough]

You should read Ruth Dudley Edwards in this regard, the discrimination and persecution suffered by the Southern Unionists dwarfed that of the Northern Nationalists. But then they went from 10% of the population at the time of partition to only 2% today.

I've read about Mitchell in Leeson's excellent 'The Black and Tans' (he makes the point that there was always justice for the ordinary Irish people, it was only the Republicans who had anything to fear from the B&Ts) but I'm sure we also hung an IRA terrorist in WW2?

Absolutely, if anything with the huge influx of immigrants from the South to the rest of the UK at the moment I think the bonds will grow ever stronger

More fanciful theories I see, to equate the experiences of southern Unionists with the northern nationalist community is disingenuous, the Nationalists had to suffer at the hands of a bigoted,sectarian statelet and all the apparatus that that state could muster against them.Some southern unionists played an important role in civil and political life in the Free state( Sir Bryan Mahon and Bryan Cooper come to mind) did'nt even Sir Oliver Nugent (36th Ulster Div) stay in the free State.Those that left in the immediate aftermath of the WOI included some large landowners(some were burned out but some left voluntarily because they could'nt stomach living without their privileged position and could not accept having the nationalists in a position of power, others just decided to take the money and run.The main decline in the unionist population was caused by the shift in the civil service from a pro unionist administration to a more nationalistic one(huge numbers of unionists were employed in a civil and Military capacity)but most left for economic reasons just like their nationalist counterparts( you forget to mention the nationalist population also suffered a huge decline)

I've read about Mitchell in Leeson's excellent 'The Black and Tans' (he makes the point that there was always justice for the ordinary Irish people, it was only the Republicans who had anything to fear from the B&Ts)

If that statement is correct we can safely surmise that more than 2 million people would have feared the tans/auxies( I deduce that figure from the near 500,000 thousand votes sinn fein received and added an estimated minimum number of dependents(3) per voter, I did not include the other 220,000 people who voted for nationalist parties(but by the time of official/unofficial goverment reprisals by the security forces in 19/21/22 even these moderate nationalist would have feared the rogue elements of the tans/auxies( not all members should be tarred with the same brush but unsurprisingly the actions of the criminal element have come to define these organisations, no amount of modern day airbrushing will gloss over the actions of some of these men) BTW The population of Ireland(32 counties) in 1911 was 4.4 million.

[keithmroberts]

I dislike intensely being drawn into Irish threads for reasons that have been evident above.

I have removed a number of comments that have strayed beyond our period.

Any further messages regarding that action will be sent to members by PM.

Please be aware that we try not to be overly strict, but we are not here to discuss Irish affairs outside the Great War period. Comments, reasonable or unreasonable that address later matters are not appropriate in a Great War Forum and may well lead to suspensions or even exclusion from the forum.

Keith Roberts

EDIT: I don't want this thread to get any further away from its topic. If anyone has an issue, please send me a PM.

[Murrough]

In the interests of harmony and adhering to the guidelines of the Ireland forum, I am not going to comment anymore.I dont want to jeopardise the good,impartial and honest research done by other members and hinder in any way queries that do actually relate to Ireland in the period 1914/1918.You Col Smyth should do the same.

[Guest Mudlarker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jUYWfFKd80

Actual members of the Black and tans interviewed in the clip at 4min in the above video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtCAdR9mMNo

From 20min on in the above video more short interviews with black and tans.

[PFF]

Constable Eugene Igoe Links

http://us.yhs4.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=befrugal&hsimp=yhs-001&type=ffui-3.4-1311&p=%20Constable%20eugene%20Igoe

[drdave]

Is it likely the list of Auxillaries and B&Ts will be made public other than going to Kew? There is a family narrative of an ancestor being in the B&Ts, but so far I've drawn a blank.

[barleyfield]

Is it likely the list of Auxillaries and B&Ts will be made public other than going to Kew? There is a family narrative of an ancestor being in the B&Ts, but so far I've drawn a blank.

Dave, here's a link to a R.I.C. related Facebook page. Members sharing stories and photos. Maybe a member would have information on your relation https://m.facebook.com/?_rdr#!/groups/126602292427?view=info&ref=bookmark

[bradley]

More fanciful theories I see, to equate the experiences of southern Unionists with the northern nationalist community is disingenuous, the Nationalists had to suffer at the hands of a bigoted,sectarian statelet and all the apparatus that that state could muster against them.

`soon there will be no protestants at all`

works both ways murrough,please remove the victimised notions in your writings

[Murrough]

`soon there will be no protestants at all`

works both ways murrough,please remove the victimised notions in your writings

Sorry,but surely you have something better to do,than lecture me on what opinions I should hold.I will also refer you to what I said on the

16 October 2012 - 11:31 AM

In the interests of harmony and adhering to the guidelines of the Ireland forum, I am not going to comment anymore.I dont want to jeopardise the good,impartial and honest research done by other members and hinder in any way queries that do actually relate to Ireland in the period 1914/1918.

You should do the same.

[fv1620]

Hello

Was reading this interesting thread and wondered if anyone had herlihs's book on the RIC. Was wondering if the alphabetical list has any of the following names in it-interested in recruitments into the Black and Tans or Auxies.

TYRRELL

TURRELL

TYRELL

Any help much appreciated

Jamie

Sorry for the delay! From "The Auxiliaries Tudor's Toughs" listed in the Temporary Cadets of the Auxiliary Division 'J' Company, Macroom Castle, Co. Cork is 636 Lt V R Tyrell (Shropshire) joined 28/9/20

Listed in Temporary Constables of Veterans & Drivers Division (Company unknown) is 482 H Turnell joined 21/1/21

[Felix C]

On 29/09/2003 at 08:58, Neil Burns said:

Hi All,

In the last few years I seem to recall a book: "Tans, Terror and Troubles" or something similar I never saw it here in the US so I can't vouch for it but it may be worth a look.

Tim Pat Coogan's Biography of Michael Collins also deals with the B&T's as does his history of the IRA but only in cursory way (only as a tangential story)

Take care,

Neil

I just picked  up a copy of Tans, Terror and Troubles: Kerry's Real Fighting Story 1913-23. Very interesting.