Black and Tans

[Airshipped]

Propaganda war definitely, I'll give you that. But that's Erskine Childers who is written out Trotsky-style because he's a 'damned Englishman' and eventually gets executed by the Free State. "Huge chunks of territory'? No, not an inch of it, they could murder and terrorise the local Unionists and mount hit and run raids against a 'fair sized police barracks' (Richard Mulcachy's words in the Dail debates) but they couldn't deny any ground to the security forces and by the summer of 1921 were within six weeks of defeat (according to Michael Collins). The conflict is largely limited to Dublin and the extreme south, most of Ireland is 'no more violent than Kent'

Some Irish innocently believed that if the facts of what was happening in Ireland were made known to the British public then the support for the war against the Irish would collapse. Childers, being of Irish and English parents, and having gone through the mind-numbing futility of the Irish convention, thought the worst and his propaganda is consequently full of outrage and anger as he doesn't have confidence in the facts alone being enough to persuade the British public.

On Collins well that was a line he and his sort pushed almost immediately. They seemed to want a Free State entity of some description and continue a campaign against Northern Ireland. Those like Childers who ultimately stood by the Republic didn't support either the Free State or Northern Ireland, preferring a military/political cul-de-sac out of principle.

Any thread on the Black & Tans will run and run, with variations on the kitchen sink arriving. The 'no more violent than Kent' situation actually worked against the British to some extent, as the Local Elections of 1920 went ahead, with nationalist majorities being returned in Counties Fermanagh and Tyrone, subsequently a problem when railroading through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that December.

[Murrough]

Not in this case, rather it's the other way around. By any standard the security forces/Loyalists won and forced republicans to sign a treaty that had them slaughtering one another and accepting slightly enhanced Home Rule in exchange for the permanent exclusion of Northern Ireland. Most Republican histories are an attempt to justify their position

LOl,the Nationalists achieved their objective(self rule) and were the ones who were in possession of the 26 counties(hardly losers after engaging with the foremost Empire of the day).Loyalism did not contribute anything substantial in the WOI beyond managing to be able to hold onto their sectarian enclave in the NE, but I have to admit that some Loyalist members of the crown forces will be remembered for their viciousness/racism and the atrocities they carried out against their nationalist neighbours despite the recent fanciful attempts to rehabilitate their reputations.The fact has to be accepted that there were some bad eggs.

[toofatfortakeoff]

Ahem. Getting back to the Mayo topic, the book by Major Donal Buckley (not IRA) on Tourmakeady Fact or Fiction gives a detailed account of the assault at the village in Mayo and may shed some light for the lad who is looking for info on Mayo. The museum/library at Ballinrobe has a wealth of information and there are very helpful people at Galway Museum. There was a police barracks in Ballinrobe

Whereabouts now unknown but I seem to remember the RIC barracks was situated close to the main crossroads and there is a photo someowhere-it was very busy in the 1880s.

....trying to locate the RIC (Royal Irish constabulary) barracks in Ballinrobe which he believes was adjoining the old post office. Donal says that The Police Barracks have:

"been demolished. Gannon's Hotel was used to billet some of forces during the War of Independence. These may have been Black and Tans, Auxilliaries or indeed maybe Old RIC who were withdrawn from more rural police barracks/stations. One of your Old Ballinrobe photos shows these buildings and maybe there is a policeman in the doorway." April 7, 2007

"The District Inspector (Commanding Officer) of the RIC was a Captain Pococke and the Barrack Sergeant was Sgt Goulden. Also, as far as I have made out, the last British infantry unit in Ballinrobe was 'C' Company, The Border Regiment, commanded by Captain Chatfield, MC.

March and May of 1921 were significant as both forces were ambushed in turn. On March 7, a patrol commanded by Capt Chatfield was ambushed by the South Mayo Brigade Old IRA. Capt. Chatfield MC was wounded as was a Private Wardle and a Corporal Bell was killed. Lt. Ibberson took over command of 'C' Company.

The following May 3rd a RIC/Tan patrol from Ballinrobe was ambushed in Tourmakeady in which a Tan and a number of RIC men were killed. After the ambush party withdrew to the hills they later had contact with Lt. Ibberson and some troops from 'C' Company. During this contact the IRA commander, Tom Maguire was injured as was another Volunteer, and his Adjutant Michael O'Brien was killed. Lt. Ibberson was badly injured and was lucky enough to survive. He and a Lt. Smith were decorated with an MBE and the RIC/Tan patrol was awarder the Irish Constabulary medal for their actions on the day. Much controversy surrounds the events of 03 and 04 May '21. I am at present writing a thesis (and maybe a book) on the incident. These details may need double checking.

[toofatfortakeoff]

Please note this is quoted from another page and it is not me writing the book....

[mhifle]

Hi,

Here is some more information I have on the ambush.

Regards Mark

Corporal C Bell, 2nd Border Regiment died of wounds after the ambush and was from Carlisle

Captain Herbert Londale Chatfield MC, 2nd Border Regiment shot in the knee while in the lorry during the ambush

Private W Southworth, 2nd Border Regiment wounded in ambush

Private W Wardle, 2nd Border Regiment wounded in ambush

I think maybe one other 2nd Border Regiment soldier was also wounded and also the Royal Army Service Corps Driver of the lorry.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

Some Irish innocently believed that if the facts of what was happening in Ireland were made known to the British public then the support for the war against the Irish would collapse. Childers, being of Irish and English parents, and having gone through the mind-numbing futility of the Irish convention, thought the worst and his propaganda is consequently full of outrage and anger as he doesn't have confidence in the facts alone being enough to persuade the British public.

On Collins well that was a line he and his sort pushed almost immediately. They seemed to want a Free State entity of some description and continue a campaign against Northern Ireland. Those like Childers who ultimately stood by the Republic didn't support either the Free State or Northern Ireland, preferring a military/political cul-de-sac out of principle.

Any thread on the Black & Tans will run and run, with variations on the kitchen sink arriving. The 'no more violent than Kent' situation actually worked against the British to some extent, as the Local Elections of 1920 went ahead, with nationalist majorities being returned in Counties Fermanagh and Tyrone, subsequently a problem when railroading through the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that December.

No, Erskine Childers lies plain and simple (and doesn't even attempt to deny that!) he's the Joseph Gobbels of the conflict. The 'zeal of the convert'. Collins didn't push any 'line', that was reality, the situation on the ground for him was bad and only getting worse, the 'tipping point' had arrived where the movements losses in men and material exceeded their ability to replace them (thanks partly to his captured documents) and that wasn't going to change. However Lloyd George still then had to award Ireland Home Rule as granted in 1912 and wanted to avoid any further bloodshed. I agree that Collins broke his word, establishing the Free State whilst supplying the IRA to continue their murder campaign against Northern Irish Unionists but what do we expect from a man like that?

I doubt the 'Nationalist majorities' of Fermanagh and Armagh were any more railroaded than the areas of Dublin that elected 4 INCREDIBLY brave Irish Unionist MPs in 1920?

[Murrough]

No, Erskine Childers lies plain and simple (and doesn't even attempt to deny that!) he's the Joseph Gobbels of the conflict. The 'zeal of the convert'. Collins didn't push any 'line', that was reality, the situation on the ground for him was bad and only getting worse, the 'tipping point' had arrived where the movements losses in men and material exceeded their ability to replace them (thanks partly to his captured documents) and that wasn't going to change. However Lloyd George still then had to award Ireland Home Rule as granted in 1912 and wanted to avoid any further bloodshed. I agree that Collins broke his word, establishing the Free State whilst supplying the IRA to continue their murder campaign against Northern Irish Unionists but what do we expect from a man like that?

I doubt the 'Nationalist majorities' of Fermanagh and Armagh were any more railroaded than the areas of Dublin that elected 4 INCREDIBLY brave Irish Unionist MPs in 1920?

More of the same I see Lt Col.Pity you can't comment without getting in your own sectarian snipe.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

LOl,the Nationalists achieved their objective(self rule) and were the ones who were in possession of the 26 counties(hardly losers after engaging with the foremost Empire of the day).Loyalism did not contribute anything substantial in the WOI beyond managing to be able to hold onto their sectarian enclave in the NE, but I have to admit that some Loyalist members of the crown forces will be remembered for their viciousness/racism and the atrocities they carried out against their nationalist neighbours despite the recent fanciful attempts to rehabilitate their reputations.The fact has to be accepted that there were some bad eggs.

No, winning is achieving your objective at reasonable cost. Britain did that, giving Home Rule to the South and allowing Northern Ireland to opt out of the 'Catholic State for the Catholic people' and not be ruled by the people who murdered their famillies and denied their right to exist. Republicans meanwhile didn't get the united Irish republic independent of the rest of the UK as they wanted and slaughtered one another in vast numbers, if they won it's a damn strange victory. In reality the Anglo-Irish conflict changed nothing, it was simply a matter of beating the Sinn Feiners down until they accepted the reality of Home Rule.

Meanwhile Southern Unionists/Protestants were persecuted and discriminated against, reduced from 10% to 2% of the population (whilst the Catholic population of NI steadily rises). I could list many examples but I'll stick to one

They banned rememberance day.

End of discussion.

I think you must accept the Shamrock Awakening/Celtic Spring/Nationalist-Unionist Rapproachment whatever you want to call it which we have enjoyed in the last couple of decades as reality. The days when Irish nationalists can try to play the victim are long over, the worst you can ever say of the Loyalists or the vigilante actions of some of the security forces is that after showing superhuman restraint for a year and a half they began to fight back against the IRA by their own methods. The B&Ts are in case in point and Peter Hart, D M Leeson, Henry McCall etc have done them great service which will only increase over time.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

More of the same I see Lt Col.Pity you can't comment without getting in your own sectarian snipe.

Really? Where exactly was the sectarianism? Or is that just your fallback when someone contradicts you with facts?

Yes I pity, I weep for the Republican's victims, hence my posting name, I honour them and will never let them be forgotten or besmirched. So should you...

[Murrough]

Really? Where exactly was the sectarianism? Or is that just your fallback when someone contradicts you with facts?

Yes I pity, I weep for the Republican's victims, hence my posting name, I honour them and will never let them be forgotten or besmirched. So should you...

I dont need a fallback position, you don't quote facts,you only quote your own biased interpretation of facts(which you are entitled to do) but dont expect everybody to accept your hyperbole.Your posts can sometimes be inherently seactarian(you just can't resist a dig at Irish Nationalism) and it is becoming quite tedious.

Honour whoever you want but remember this was a man who advocated the shooting of unarmed civilians.

[Lt Colonel Gerald Smyth]

I dont need a fallback position, you don't quote facts,you only quote your own biased interpretation of facts(which you are entitled to do) but dont expect everybody to accept your hyperbole.Your posts can sometimes be inherently seactarian(you just can't resist a dig at Irish Nationalism) and it is becoming quite tedious.

Honour whoever you want but remember this was a man who advocated the shooting of unarmed civilians.

No, it's NOT ok to be biased, I mean that's what the Celtic Spring is all about in terms of history, the the Tim Pat Coogan's of this world can't get away with it any more. I have my facts and you don't counter them. If you can by all means do, that's what genuine historical debate is all about. It's not 'sectarian' to criticise Irish Nationalism and point out its' failings, lord knows Irish Nationalists have taken great delight in doing that to Irish Unionism.

This is Colonel Smyth;

http://www.bob-sinton.com/smythsofthebann/apx-c.php

(the Smyth family gave so much for King and Country it makes you want to weep!)

what exactly does he say wrong? The future Field Marshall Montgomery says the same thing in his letters when based in Cork, you challenge a man who might be armed and if they refuse to comply you shoot because so many good men had been cravenly murdered by supposedly innocent civilians with pistols and grenades in their pockets

Smyth's speech has been distorted over the years by republicans in order to try to create some desperate justification for his murder.

http://www.impalapublications.com/blog/index.php?/archives/1993-Lies,-by-Kevin-Myers.html

He was murdered simply because he was a police officer just as the IRA had been murdering in their dozens since for the previous year and a half.

[jdoyle]

They banned rememberance day.

Could you clarify who banned Remembrance Day and when?

[toofatfortakeoff]

Remembrance day wasn't banned in the Republic in 2007. It was well publicized and applauded by the city at large (you are always going to have some dissenters but no protest) In fact it took place there while I was living there in the city of Galway. Neither did I see any of the persecution of Protestants mentioned at the start of this thread. There have been a multitude of visitors to Galway from the North, and those that I met were enjoying their time very much. Also the visit of the Queen to Ireland and the rapturous welcome she received from the ''general public'' shows there is no hatred at large. An English accent in the South doesn't qualify you for vitriol.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm interested to know that this "Celtic Spring" is.

[depaor01]

Me too Steven, and I'm Irish!

[archangel9]

An English accent in the South doesn't qualify you for vitriol.

I can attest to that. I have lived in the West of Ireland for 30 years with a London accent and proud of it.

[Murrough]

I'm interested to know that this "Celtic Spring" is.

There is no such thing but I do believe it could be a new phase coined by unionist,s to allude to a new interpretation of Irish history carried out by a new wave of Journalists/historians with a unionist centric agenda and those that have the ability to cast an ultra critical eye on the nationalists role in that period.While all new research is welcome,and events do need new interpreting, it cannot be done when you discard completely the experiences of one side be it for a personal/political/ or monetary motive.

[Steven Broomfield]

Well, from my observations over several visits to Ireland (work and holiday), if the Irish Spring leads into an Irish Summer, it's probably wet.

[spconnolly007]

an irish Jeremy Clarkson(clarkson is funnier)

I never imagined anything funnier than Dear Jeremy but then I visited Historium.Com. Nuff said!!

[Murrough]

Could you clarify who banned Remembrance Day and when?

I cant find any reference to a banning of Remembrance Day but I do recall reading that some Remembrance services did end in rioting when the services were attacked by Republicans who resented the carrying of Union Jacks by participants.sorry I cant recall the source at the moment.

[jdoyle]

Remembrance day wasn't banned in the Republic in 2007. It was well publicized and applauded by the city at large (you are always going to have some dissenters but no protest) In fact it took place there while I was living there in the city of Galway. Neither did I see any of the persecution of Protestants mentioned at the start of this thread. There have been a multitude of visitors to Galway from the North, and those that I met were enjoying their time very much. Also the visit of the Queen to Ireland and the rapturous welcome she received from the ''general public'' shows there is no hatred at large. An English accent in the South doesn't qualify you for vitriol.

my Catholic gran was a staunch poppy wearer (her Dad's Death Penny was on permanent display in her house in Dublin and sparked my interest in WW1) and never mentioned any banning of Remembrance Day. I'm aware of some of the issues that cropped up at some Remembrance Days but I'm at a loss to find anything re them being banned.

I've been married to a "Southern" Protestant for 21 years. Never heard anything about persecution of Protestants from herself, family or peers and there have been quite a few conversations re family history and Irish history pre WW1, WW1 and beyond.

To bring this thread back to the Black and Tans, at the very end of her Catholic grandfathers witness statement is a reference to the flying column he was with giving refuge to a B&T during the Truce period and the B&T then settling in the area

http://www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1647.pdf#page=40

He and his brother took part in the action at Knocklong. The two lads hung for this, Foley and Maher, were immediately followed by the last man to be hung by the British in Ireland - William Mitchell, a B&T who had been involved in the robbery and murder of a Protestant.

[toofatfortakeoff]

my Catholic gran was a staunch poppy wearer (her Dad's Death Penny was on permanent display in her house in Dublin and sparked my interest in WW1) and never mentioned any banning of Remembrance Day. I'm aware of some of the issues that cropped up at some Remembrance Days but I'm at a loss to find anything re them being banned.

There is rightfully great interest in WW1 in the Republic now and a number of books have now been published. MY FAVOURITE is ''Galway and the Great War'' by William Henry. He has now written another book about ''Galwaymen in the Great War''.

Sean Lemass (who himself played his part on Bloody Sunday) said in 1962 when he was Taoiseach, that Ireland's part in the Great War would one day become fully appreciated. While Lemass was fighting as a 17 yr old in the GPO building his brothers were preparing for the Somme Herbert Justin (Royal Dublin Fusiliers and Edwin Stephen Lemass. Herbert joined the 2nd RDF. is buried at Caterpillar valley.

This is a quote from the Royal Dublin Fusiliers Association.

The fact that large numbers of volunteers from the Nationalist community participated is not widely acknowledged. In Northern Ireland, the Unionist tradition is seen to commemorate the war as a symbol of loyalty to the United Kingdom. The Nationalist tradition came to regard those who fought in the 1916 Rising as the true patriots while those who died fighting in the British Army were seen as misguided, if remembered at all. Yet during the actual war, "the bond of common service and common sacrifice proved so strong and enduring that Catholic and Protestant, Unionist and Nationalist, lived and fought and died side by side like brothers," to quote Major Bryan Cooper of the 10th (Irish) Division.

Sean Lemass stated in 1966

"In later years it was common - and I was also guilty in this respect - to question the motives of those men who joined the new British armies formed at the outbreak of the war, but it must in their honour and in fairness to their memory be said that they were motivated by the highest purpose."

Ireland's history and sacrifice will never be erased.

[Steven Broomfield]

Ireland's history and sacrifice will never be erased.

Hear, hear. I am - as I write - listenng to this programme, linked below, on RTE's website. As the subject's father was in Boland's Mill in Easter 1916 I think it'srelevant that I pst it here. I didn't realise his mother was an English Protestant. In addition to anything else, I suspect our nations' shared histories, for good and bad, will also never be erased.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/finucane.html

[jdoyle]

There is rightfully great interest in WW1 in the Republic now and a number of books have now been published. MY FAVOURITE is ''Galway and the Great War'' by William Henry. He has now written another book about ''Galwaymen in the Great War''.

a summary of early Remembrance in Ireland can be found at

www.greatwar.ie/ire-war-down/4eremdw.rtf

and there are some nice video clips on Pathe showing Remembrance Days in Dublin.

The Lemass family donated some material to Dublin archives earlier this year

http://www.dublincity.ie/Press/PressReleases/PR052012/Pages/FirstWorldWarDocumentsDonatedByLemassFamily.aspx

http://cce.gno.ie/news/2012/05May/LemassFamily15DonateWW1DocumentstoDublinCity.php

There was a nice website with the Lemass family members and their WW1 service but it eludes me at the moment.

Can't say I've read the Galway books (yet).

[jdoyle]

"Forward the Rifles" by Capt David Campbell MC outlines his career from studying at Trinity College to be a Church of Ireland minister, through the war with the Royal Irish Rifles and his return to Trinity College. He was a member of the Dublin University OTC before the war and rejoined the OTC after it.

He records in one paragraph :

"Strange to say The Troubles made very little impression on our minds and I remember very little about them.

On another occasion, when returning from a dance with 2 pals Fred Little and Bill Harkness, we were stopped by 3 drunk Black and Tans in Wicklow Street. Harkness had the wit to fade away but Little would argue with them. They waved their guns in front of our faces and abused us, calling us the dirtiest names under the sun, while each moment we expected the the guns to go off."

Having survived this brush with the B&Ts (he described this as the worst fright during this period) he became a civil engineer and was involved in the construction of the Irish War Memorial in 1938 and the construction of the airports/runways at Shannon, Dublin Airport and Baldonnel. Some information re the work/administration that went into the Irish War Memorial can be seen here; Campbell working with architect Thomas Joseph Byrne.