susimillar Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 I am trying to obtain information on my g-grandfarther. This picture was taken by ‘Bull’ in Regent Street who operated between 1892 and 1906 and shows his buttons the clearest. He had one child born Islington registered in army births and baptisms and a child born in Dublin in and 1901 also registered in army births and baptisms. I have copies of a number of pictures taken in South Africa one dated Xmas day 1902, so know that he went from Ireland to Africa. I also know that he was a Colour-Sergeant-Instructor at the Inns of Court as I have a copy of the Bystander Magazine dated October 1914 where he appears with “Some Learned and Gallant Soldiers”. We have a button as shown at the top of the Bystander article which I believe belongs to the ‘Devils Own’ but the button on his uniform is different. From here I have a couple of pictures of him in Birkhamstead and confirmation from an investigation into his brother by M15, dated 1918, that he was a Sergeant Major Vassila, Rifle Brigade, attached to Inns of Court O.T.C., Birkhamstead. I know I can not find him by searching the National Archives as he served after 1922, although any comment on when this information may be available would be good, but mostly I would like to know about the button shown on his uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 It is a Rifle Brigade Button,The Medal is the Queen's South Africa 1899~1902 Medal & Clasps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Welcome to the Forum Vassila what a superb set of phots - and a superb moustache! The buttons and central phot confirm he was in the Rifle Bde You have given us a good start but it would be good to have more details. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 31 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2006 In which case I assume he first joined the rifle brigade and it is with them he went out to Africa, or would he have joined the OTC from the start? Sorry have no idea how it works. The next pictures I assume to be taken in Africa show him and 4 others in uniform which show his training corps badge on his right side and crossed guns on the left which from other posts suggests he could shoot. No information on the back of the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 31 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Inns of Court (I think) assume it to be about 1914. Would you be able to tell me what the badge on his hat is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 I would suggest that he had been attached /posted on the permanent staf and rebadged; from the later set of phots he must have been the Sgt Major. There are some Inns of Court specialists, on the Forum, who will be able to tell us more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesmessenger Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 The Inns of Court OTC During the Great War lists him as attached staff with the rank of RSM. Charles M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 31 March , 2006 Share Posted 31 March , 2006 Wuld this be your man? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...&accessmethod=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 31 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 31 March , 2006 thanks but no, that is his brother. I read his file and found he signed up in 1916 after a few questions regarding his surname and was discharged in 1919. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 2 May , 2006 Share Posted 2 May , 2006 Vassili, There is an S. Vassili, Number 3037, Colour Sergeant in the medal rolls for the 4th Rifle Brigade. The roll confirms the Cape Colony, Orange Free State and South Africa 02 clasps. He also appears on the Battalions original roll. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 3 May , 2006 Share Posted 3 May , 2006 Vassili, The 4th left Queenstown, Ireland, on the 4th Dec 1901, 812 in number on the S.S. Orient arriving in Table Bay, Cape Town on 4th January 1902, and disembarked the following day and left for Kroonstad. If you need their Service Record while they were in South Africa, let me know and I will put it all down for you. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom A McCluskey Posted 3 May , 2006 Share Posted 3 May , 2006 Vassila Looks like an Inns of Court OTC cap badge. Hard to tell though as the picture is very small. hope this helps Tom McC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwenlock Posted 3 May , 2006 Share Posted 3 May , 2006 Hi Vasilla This is the Inns of Court Collar dog & appears top centre of the right hand picture of your first posting This is the Inns of Court Regiment Cap Badge Yours OxfordYeoman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 20 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Vassili, The 4th left Queenstown, Ireland, on the 4th Dec 1901, 812 in number on the S.S. Orient arriving in Table Bay, Cape Town on 4th January 1902, and disembarked the following day and left for Kroonstad. If you need their Service Record while they were in South Africa, let me know and I will put it all down for you. Andy Andy, If it is possible, any inormation on his service record while in South Africa would be wonderful. thanks Vassila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Vassili, There are two parts to this, firstly the 4th Battalion Letter to the editor of The Rifle Brigade Chronicles and then the Record of the 4th Battalion in 1902. 4th Battalion letter to the editor. Bloemfontein, Orange River Colony. December 1902. Dear Editor, We finished off our last letter to you last year on board the Orient at St. Vincent. On Christmas Day, 1901, we had a tug of war, Officers against the Battalion, which the officers won, and in the evening there was a concert, at which the Band, under Sergeant Guest, did yeoman service. Through the instrumentality of Thornton numerous boxing competitons were got up, which managed to pass away a good deal of time, and afforded a great deal of amusement. We arrived at Cape Town on January 4th, and disembarked on the following day, Sunday. Our destination, we learnt, was to be Kroonstad. The left half-battalion under Wilson was the first to start, and after an uneventful journey reached Kroonstad on January 9th. The right half-battalion under Colonel Pemberton was not quite so firtunate, as they were turned out of the train somewhere in the region of Hanover Road to resist a reported attack, which rumour puts down to a sentry, who reported a party of officers out shooting as Boers; however, the 3rd Battalion of the Grenadiers showed the right half-battalion every hospitality, and it arrived at Kroonstad on January 12th full of blood. We were not allowed to remain long together, as on the following day Petre sailed forth with four companies to take up quarters on the Kroonstad-Lindley blockhouse line, while the four other companies remained to garrison part of the defences of Kroonstad. Colonel Pemberton became Commandant at Kroonstad, with Thornton as his Station Staff Officer. Early in Fewbruary we said goodbye to Colonel Pemberton, who left us to go to Pretoria to tackle the inticacies of law. Lieut.-Colonel Leslie arrived at the beginning of February from India, and almost at the same time the Headquarters of the Battalion were shifted from Kroonstad to Dornkop, and all of our companies, with the exception oh Knox's, were taken out on the blockhouse line; but he was not left long in peace, and proceeded shortly to Dornkloof, a quarter which he had to evacuate and reoccupy with the same prcision as distinguished our manoevres as regards Lindley. We were all very proud to welcome, as our new Quarter-Master Sergeant, Colour-Sergeant Worthing, who had done so well out here with the Mounted Infantry. We must now congratulate him on his marriage, and more especially do we do so as Mrs. Worthing is the daughter of Sergeant Grandy, who for so many years looked after the Officer's Mess with such care, and with such excellent results. Our time on the blockhouse line was bound to be somewhat monotonous and tedious; and though it was varied by fairly frequent sniping at night, the novelty soon began to wear off and the rection of a barbed wire fence of wonderful proportions could hardly be termed an exciting task; still, the Battalion can flatter itself that its line of defence was acknowledged to be one of the best in South Africa, even though it was affirmed that the Battalion had permitted the ubiquitous De Wet to pass through our line, a fact which the gentleman in question, after peace was declared, denied, and informed us that, on the date in question, he was at least 70 miles south of our line!!!. So much for the accuracy of some "Intelligence Reports". More to come. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 The next pictures I assume to be taken in Africa show him and 4 others in uniform which show his training corps badge on his right side Isn`t that a PTI badge? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 More than one drive terminated either against or close to our line, but unfortunately we gained very little excitement from them, the wily Boer not coming anywhere near us. Seargeant White and his myrmidons built the officers a palatial mess house at Dornkop, and various other smaller houses to shelter Duff's mighty stores, and Sergeant Nash's little knicknacks. If one did not learn a great deal that was particularly interesting on the blockhouse line, one at all events acquired the art of becoming a first class thief: without this art one cannot exist in South Africa. June 1st brought us the news of peace, and almost directly afterwards we were ordered to send off a party to attend the Coronation festivities at home. Wilson went in charge of our little lot, and they sailed on the Bavarian. Hardly had this party left us when we got orders to move into Kroonstad, Lieut.-Colonel Leslie taking over duties of Cmmandant from Wilson. We soon found ourselves established in our old quarters on Gun Hill, and, greatly assisted by the Pioneers under Sergeant White, made ourselves comfortable. We forgot to mention that before leaving the blockhouse line the authorities kindly requested us to roll up all our wire fencing, a task we could not relish, considering all the pains which we had spent upon making our fence impassable. We spent about three weeks at Kroonstad, and then we received orders to proceed by march route to Bloemfontein, so off we started on July 1st, and after a pleasant march in pleasant weather arrived at Glen, and were then told the authorities had no use for us in Bloemfontein, and we were requested to retrace our steps to Karree, where we established ourselves. We determined to play as many games as possible, and so, mainly through the instumentality of Bernard, managed to get an excellent football and hockey ground; an account of the former game will be found elsewhere. Hockey certainly was the most popular, and it was wonderful how active and nimble even the old gentlemen became, and nobody cared a rap however how hard he was whacked on the legs. We started a polo ground, and we hope that the younger members have benefited a good deal from George Morris's coaching. The latter has been indefatigable since he has been with us, running the sports on the Regimental Birthday, which turned out an unqualified success, and it is reported that shortly he will be as good at ping pong as he is at Acrostics. Shooting has been really a great source of amusement, and, thanks to the able management of Knox, we succeeded in getting over 600 head during our stay at Karree. Knox's chief supporters were the Colonel, Napier, Foljambe, Buxton, Pigot and Ripley. The Regimental dinner at Pretoria on August 25th was an enormous success, and all Riflemen owe a great debt of gratitude to General Lyttelton for starting the idea, and also for his hospitality. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 In addition to G.H. Morris we were delighted to welcome Jock Stuart, Oldfield, Crichton and Cox back again, even though it was in some cases only for a short period in time. The band, under Sergeant Guest, continues it's victorious career, and while we were at Kroonstad was in great request; however, we are glad that we now have an opportunity of hearing it ourselves. We sent our reservists hme under Pinney, while we were on the march from Kroonstad, and everyone was much upset to hear that their train was run into at Karree, and that three of them were badly hurt, but we all trust that the latter will soon be all right, and that they will be able to return to their homes none the worse for waht might have been a very serious accident. Crichton started a recruits course in September, a most excellent range having been built by Sergeant White and his Pioneers at Karree. Crichton must have had a most arduous task, as he had the luck to have to put through six most turbulent young officers. Golf was started with great vigour, and though none of us are very good were all determined we must become professors at the game, even at the cost of broken clubs and Irish Parliamentary language. At the end of September we received one of the worst possible bits of news, namely, that Vernon hed been killed at polo at Pretoria. It came as a terrible shock to us all, for several of us had only seen him a short time before full of health and fun at the Regimental Dinner. The Battalion sent an escort of 100 men and the band, under Foljambe, Cox, Oldfield, Burrowes and Duff for the funeral; and sorrowful as was the duty imposed on the party, everyone was glad that it was possible to arrange so that only Riflemen should bear one who had been so universally beloved and respected in the regiment to hislast resting place. It is no exaggeration to say that the regiment has sustained a very serious loss. Vernon was a Rifleman among Rifleman, and always the keenest about all outdoor sports and games. We deepy feel for his people in their great affliction; his brother officers will always remember him as the best and kindest of friends. Early in October we received orders to move into Bloemfontein, and arrived there after two days march, stopping at Glen Lyon Farm the first night, where the owner entertained officers and men most hospitably with fresh butter and milk. We are now very comfortablty settled, and much as we liked Karree, it cannot be denied that Bloemfontein gives more scope to the men to enjoy themselves. We have built two tin houses for the officers, and the men have got marquees to dine in, so, all things considered, no one has much to grouse at. We hear, or hope, or think we are going to be at home early in 1903, and with this we will close our battalion letter, at the same time wishing all Riflemen in all parts of the world the best of luck for 1903. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 4th Battalion Record 1902. January 4th, 1902. Arrival in Table Bay. January 5th, Disembarked at Cape Town. Left half Battalion entrained under Lietenant-Colonel Wilson, right half under Colonel Pemberton, and left for Kroonstad. January 7th, Right half Battalion detrained, and manned sangars between Hanover Road and Naauwpoort, occupying the gaps between the blockhouses garrisoned by the 3rd Battalion Greanadier Guards. January 8th, Left half Battalion arrived at Kroonstad, and occupied a portion of the defences round the station. January 11th, Right half Battalion arrived at Kroonstad. Colonel Pemberton was appointed Commandant, and Captain Thornton, Station Staff Officer. Jauary 12th, Right half Battalion, made up to 354 rank and file, occupied blockhouses along the Kroonstad-Lindley-Bethlehem line. Headquarters of the Battalion took over Gun Hill, Kroonstad. January 23rd, "G" or Captain Hon. C.F. Napiers Company, and a portion of "F" of Captain L.H. Thornton's Company, occupied blockhouses in continuation of the right half Battalion and on Kaalfontein Loop. January 27th, Lieutenant-Colonel G.F. Lelsie posted to the Battalion on promotion. February 9th, Lieutenant-Colonel G.F. Leslie joined the Battalion. February 10th, Secoond-Lieutenant G.C. Sladen proceeded to join the 4th Battalion Mounted Infantry Company under Captain L.T. Sanderson. February 13th, Lieutenant J.L. Buxton took over the duties of Sation Staff Officer, Kroonstad. February 16th, Colonel A.R. Pemberton relinquished command of the Battlion, having commanded it since December 1st, 1897. Lieutenant-Colonel H.F.M. Wilson took over the duties of Commandant, Kroonstad,from Colonel A.R. Pemberton. February 17th, Lieutenant-Colonel G.F. Leslie took over command of the Battalion. Febraury 19th, "E" or Captain C. Knox's Company, moved from E section to D section (Gun Hill) Kroonsatd defences. Febraury 20th, Headquarters of the Battalion moved from Gun Hill, to Doornkop. February 25th, The following were the remarks made by G.O.C. Dublin District on the musketry of the Battalion for the year 1901:- "Considering the numbers exercised, and the large proportion of young soldiers, I am of the opinion that the musketry training of the Battalion, as is always the case, has been most carefully and efficiently carried out, both as regards to trained men and recruits. The great interest taken in all musketry matters by the officer commanding has been followed by all ranks under him. The training of the large number of recruits is most satisfactory, and speaks volumes for the system of training in the Battalion." March 4th, Two N.C.O.@s and foourty seven Riflemen proceeded to Pretoria for training prior to joining the 4th Battalion Mounted Infantry under Captain L.T. Saunderson. May 23rd Quarter-Master Sergeant H.E. Worthing was presented with the Distinguished Conduct Medal. March 25th The Battalion took over blockhouses 35 to 63A from 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders, "E" or Captain C. Knox's Company, vacating Gun Hill, Kroonstad, and occupying Dornkloof. April 6th, 2nd Battalion Queens relieved the Battalion in blockhouses 50 to 63A. April 7th "A" Company and "E" or Captain C. Knox's Company took over blockhouses 1 to 9, and A and B sections of the Kroonstad defences from the Militia. May 9th A draft of four N.C.O.'s and twenty seven Riflemen joined from the 15th Provisional Company. May 10th, Lieutenant Hon. E. Weld-Forester proceeded to join 4th Battalion Mouted Infantry Company, which had recently been transferred from 20th to 13th Battalion Mounted Infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 June 1st, News received that peace had been signed the previous day. June 3rd, The following left Kroonstad for England to take part in the Coronation celebrations:- Lieutenant-Colonel H.F.M. Wilson, Quarter-Master Sergeant H. Worhting, Sergeant W. Barker, Corporal W. Baker, and seven Riflemen. Lieutenant-Colonel H.F.M. Wilson handed over the duties of Commandant, Kroonstad, to Lieutenant-Colonel G.F. Leslie. June 5th, Headquarters of the Battalion moved from Doornkop to Gun Hill, Kroonstad. June 6th, The following telegram was published in Orders:- "June 5th, 12133. Following telegram from Secretary of State for War is published. For your information, begins: June 4th. His Majesty's Government offer to you their most sincere congratulations on the energy, skill, patience, with which you have conducted this prolonged capaign, and would wish you to communicate to the troops under your orders their profound sense of the spirit and endurance with which they have met every call made upon them, of their bravery in action, of the excellent discipline preserved, and of the humanity shown by them throughout this trying period." June 8th, The Companies in Kroonsatd took part in the Peace Thanksgiving Service. June 25t, The Battalion concentrated on Gun Hill, Kroonsatd. June 30th, Lieutenant-Colonel G.F. Leslie and Lieutenant J.L. Buxton relinquish the duties of Commandant and Station Staff Officer, Kroonstad, respectively. The Battalion left Kroonstad for Bloemfontein by march route, and camped at Boschrand. July 1st, The Battalion encamped at Holfontein Bridge July 2nd The Battalion encamped at Ventersburg Road. July 3rd The Battalion encamped at Virginai Siding. July 4th The Battalion encamped at Doorn Spruit. Eighty four Reservists under Major C.F. Pinney left the Battalion for England; six of this party were injured in a railway accident at Karree. Major C.F. Pinney ceased tro be attached to the Battalion. July 5th Battalion encamped at Smaldeel. July 7th Battalion encamped at Eensgevonden July 8th Battalion encamped at Brandfort. July 9th Battalion encamped at Karree. July 10th Battalion encamped at Glen; orders received for the Battalion to return to Karree. July 11th Battalion encamped at Karree. July 14th The Battalion was inspected by Major-General T.E. Stephenson, C.B. July 26th Captain F.A. Irby ceased to be attached to the Battalion. July 28th Captain Hon. G.H. Morris joined the Battalion, and was attached to it for duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 August 2nd Captain P.R. Creed joined the Battalion for duty on promotion. August 10th A draft of 187 Riflemen joined from the 15th Provisional Company. August 16th Twenty five N.C.O.'s and Riflemen left the Battalion for England for discharge and transfer to the Reserve. August 25th Regimental Birthday. The usual sports were held. August 30th Captain P.R. Creed appointed mamber of the Compensation Board, Bethulie. September 1st Twenty five Riflemen proceeded to Harrismith to join 1st Mounted Infantry. September 3rd Mounted Infantry Company found by this Battalion transferred to 1st Regiment Mounted Infantry. September 8th Second-Lieutenant R.P. Burrowes took over duties of Assistant R.S.O. Bloemfontein. September 15th Fourty five Riflemen proceeded to Pietermaritzburg to join 2nd Battalion on transfer. September 22nd Five officers, one warrant officer, ninety nine sergeants and riflemen with band and buglers, total 136, proceeded to Pretoria under Captain Hon. A. Foljambe to take part in the funeral of the late Brevet-Major H.E. Vernon, D.S.O. October 7th Battalion Rifle Meeting was held on this and the two following days. October 13th Battalion marched from Karree to Glen Lyon. Battalion marched from Glen Lyon to Bloemfontein. November 1st Battalion was inspected by Lieutenant-General Hon. Sir N. Lyttelton, K.C.B., commanding Transvaal and Orange Riover Colony. December 6th H.M. Forces in the Orange River Colony ceased to be subject to the Army Act as if they were on active service. December 20th Captain Hon. G.H. Morris proceeded home. Strength of Battalion on December 31st, 1902 Lieutenant-Colonel 1 Major 1 Captains 8 Lieutenants 4 Second Lieutenants 13 Staff 2 Warrant Officer 1 Staff Sergeants 5 Sergeants 45 Acting Sergeants 12 Corporals 35 Acting Corporals 48 Buglers 16 Riflemen 782 Total all ranks 973 The warrant officers, staff and colour serrgeants are as follows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Warrant Officers Sergeant-Major G. Mitchell Bandmaster J. Brady Staff Sergeants Quarter-Master Sergeant H.E. Worthing Orderly-Room Sergeant W. Nash Sergeant-Instructor of Musketry W. Churcher Sergeant-Bugler G.Lee Sergeant-Master-Cook J. Schalk Pioneer-Sergeant R. White Band-Sergeant P.Guest Orderly-Room Clerk-Sergeant A.B. Heaney Officers-Mees-Sergeant J.P. Cummins Sergeant-Master-Tailor F. Waite (attached) Armourer-Sergeant J. Dawes Colour Sergeants "A" Company F. Green "B" Company S.C. Vassila "C" Company ------------ "D" Company R. Jackson "E" Company W. Brown "F" Company G. Saunders "G" Company H.Moore "H" Company G.Ostler War Medals 23 Officers, 1 Warrant Officer, and 771 N.C.O.'s and Riflemen are in possession of War Medals Distinguished Conduct Medal Quartermaster-Sergeant H.E. Worthing (with one bar) Long Service and Good Conduct Medal No. 3419, Corporal P. Burton Good Conduct Badges One Good Conduct Badge 254 Two Good Conduct Badges 40 Three Good Conduct Badges 13 Four Good Conduct Badges 2 Re-Engagements Number re-engaged 30 Increase From other Corps 1 From 2nd Battalion 5 From 15th Provisional Company 290 Decrease Died 15 Discharged 3 Deserted 1 To Army Reserve 119 To other Corps 6 To 2nd Battalion 45 To home Battalion or Depot 63 Hoe this helps a little, you will see that your relation was colour-sergeant to "B" Company. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 20 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Andy, Thank you, I have included a photo of what I presume, following your information, is some of the 4th Rifle Brigade. I have a number of others which I could post showing Bloemfontein, Kaffer the kitchen etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susimillar Posted 20 May , 2006 Author Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Isn`t that a PTI badge? Phil B Phil B, Could I ask what a PTI badge is please? thanks Vassila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 20 May , 2006 Share Posted 20 May , 2006 Vassila, Any of the photographs that you can show would be great. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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