nunnj1954 Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 I have a Frederick Watton in my family tree who was born in 1893 at Sudbury, Suffolk, his name appears on the Sudbury War Memorial as died 1915, family rumour has it that he died of fever in Palestine, however I have been unable to find him on the CWWG web site, an email to them received the reply that they did not have him listed!! I suspect he might have been in the Suffolk Regiment, possibly at Gallipoli? can anyone help find him please. Further information has now come to light, apparently a newspaper article in the local paper dated 9th August 1916 states that a Corporal W Watton of the 5th Batt Suffolks was amongst those remembered in a Memorial service held at the local church at Sudbury, Suffolk. So I am wondering if any of those that kindly helped in my search a few months ago, might recheck their data this time for a Cpl W Watton of the 5th Battalion Suffolks, for me, many thanks. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 I can't find anyone likely on either the CWGC site or in Soldiers Died. The most likely guess is that he died in the UK after having being discharged by the army (which is why he doesnt appear in official records). You'll need to check for UK death certificates and for military ones issued overseas (just to be sure). It's possible (just) that he might have served under a different name. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 Sorry, but no one of that name on SDGW Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunnj1954 Posted 13 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2006 Thanks John, I shall look into those options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 Have checked the overseas index - no joy there Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 MICs listed for 7 Frederick Watton, but no Suffolk Regt Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunnj1954 Posted 13 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2006 Much appreciated Chris, strange how his name got on to the Sudbury War Memorial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 John Not at all strange that he's on the memorial. Until you know different, work on the assumption that he died (somewhere, somehow) and the local community wanted to remember him. As well as looking for a UK death cert. check local newspapers. Start with 1914 looking for a reference to him joining up. Work forward looking for some news of him throughout 1914/15. Look at the editions round when the war memorial was being considered and names being invited (and, of course, for the reports of the official unveiling). There's a good chance of a mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 13 March , 2006 Share Posted 13 March , 2006 John, you may already know this, but...... An assistant at the tourist office in Sudbury has already collected information on most of the men named on the memorial. I wonder if she has found something out about your man? READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE. There's a phone number, too. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 14 March , 2006 Share Posted 14 March , 2006 Much appreciated Chris, strange how his name got on to the Sudbury War Memorial Not as strange as you might at first thought. It is estimated that up to 45,000 men were not recorded by the Ministry of Pensions / Ministry of Defence as war casualties! In my experience most if not all civic war memorials contain the names of men like this. It's a national disgrace that the government has never made any effort to trace men like this. Have a look at www.cwgc.co.uk. It's been left to the likes of us to do the donkey work and to pay for investigating these cases. Why not obtain this man's death certificate and then see if he could have died as a result of his war service. It's worthwhile bearing in mind that the civic authorities placed his name on their tribute as a casualty of the war. Regards to all Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunnj1954 Posted 14 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2006 Not as strange as you might at first thought. It is estimated that up to 45,000 men were not recorded by the Ministry of Pensions / Ministry of Defence as war casualties! In my experience most if not all civic war memorials contain the names of men like this. It's a national disgrace that the government has never made any effort to trace men like this. Have a look at www.cwgc.co.uk. It's been left to the likes of us to do the donkey work and to pay for investigating these cases. Why not obtain this man's death certificate and then see if he could have died as a result of his war service. It's worthwhile bearing in mind that the civic authorities placed his name on their tribute as a casualty of the war. Regards to all Neil Thanks for that information Neil, that is an amazing number of men, and I totally agree a national disgrace, I shall certainly try to get his death certificate. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunnj1954 Posted 14 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2006 John, you may already know this, but...... An assistant at the tourist office in Sudbury has already collected information on most of the men named on the memorial. I wonder if she has found something out about your man? READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE. There's a phone number, too. Tom Thanks Tom, I do know Shirley, and I am actually trying to find out more about Fred Watton, partly for my own family history, and also for Shirley's War Memorial Project, unfortuanely Shirley has not got any further than me at the moment, I believe there are only about three or four servicemen she has no details of. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 14 March , 2006 Share Posted 14 March , 2006 It's worthwhile bearing in mind that the civic authorities placed his name on their tribute as a casualty of the war. As with any research project, it's important not to reach a conclusion without basis. In most cases, war memorials were erected by "ad hoc committees" in their communities rather than, say, the local council. They will have had their own rules about who they wished to remember. In some cases, these rules were very wide and all-encompassing. It means that one can easily find someone on a memorial but who one struggles to know why (other than the fact that they may have served at some point and may have died at some point). In terms of the 45,000 claimed by the Campaign, I think they must have recently upped this from a previous claim of 20,000. And, as with any guesswork, one figure is as much speculation as another. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 Do you know his full name? Perhaps Fredrick is his middle name. Just a thought. Tim Sydney, AUS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred W Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 There is no Frederick Watton listed in the deaths registered in England 1915-1918. Just a shot in the dark.In the 1901 census there is a Frederick Watton born in Eye Suffolk the adopted son of Samuel Lingley. The CWGC have Frederick James Lingley pte 15339 9th Bn Suffolk Reg., died 13/9/16 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. Maybe this is the guy? Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alison S Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 Have you tried looking in the local newspapers of the time (often available at libraries on microfilm etc) Its how I found out how my great-great uncle had died - they printed a lovely obituary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernardmcilwaine Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 you are all assuming he died in uniform,he may have died as a civilian POW or died in connection with the war,the turks took civilians prisoner in the middle east,maybe the village added his name out of respect,bernard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 As with any research project, it's important not to reach a conclusion without basis. In most cases, war memorials were erected by "ad hoc committees" in their communities rather than, say, the local council. They will have had their own rules about who they wished to remember. In some cases, these rules were very wide and all-encompassing. It means that one can easily find someone on a memorial but who one struggles to know why (other than the fact that they may have served at some point and may have died at some point). In terms of the 45,000 claimed by the Campaign, I think they must have recently upped this from a previous claim of 20,000. And, as with any guesswork, one figure is as much speculation as another. John I base my comments here upon hard fact. Ashford civic war memorial contained the names of 12 forgotten men. So far 7 have been approved and I envisage a further 11 will soon get the same honour. I am working on a further 23 men all of whom come from outlying Ashford villages. That gives a total of no less than 41 men for ONE Kent borough! You see where we are going? As I have said, most if not all war memorials contain men like this. CWGC.co.uk has recently "upped" it's estimate after very careful consideration. Someone needs to make an estimate John. Left to the government it would be NIL!!! Sorry about hijacking this thread. I am only responding to someone elses comment. My advice is STILL to get hold of this man's death certificate and make an informed judgement from it. Nice work in Cheadle John. Regards to all Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 I base my comments here upon hard fact. Ashford civic war memorial contained the names of 12 forgotten men. So far 7 have been approved and I envisage a further 11 will soon get the same honour. I am working on a further 23 men all of whom come from outlying Ashford villages. That gives a total of no less than 41 men for ONE Kent borough! You see where we are going? As I have said, most if not all war memorials contain men like this. CWGC.co.uk has recently "upped" it's estimate after very careful consideration. Someone needs to make an estimate John. Left to the government it would be NIL!!! Sorry about hijacking this thread. I am only responding to someone elses comment. My advice is STILL to get hold of this man's death certificate and make an informed judgement from it. Nice work in Cheadle John. Regards to all Neil I have found 2 on our local war memorial & they are being actively worked on at the moment. I have also found about half a dozen whilst reading through the East Sussex Coroners reports & I bet as I go on that there will be more Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nunnj1954 Posted 15 March , 2006 Author Share Posted 15 March , 2006 There is no Frederick Watton listed in the deaths registered in England 1915-1918. Just a shot in the dark.In the 1901 census there is a Frederick Watton born in Eye Suffolk the adopted son of Samuel Lingley. The CWGC have Frederick James Lingley pte 15339 9th Bn Suffolk Reg., died 13/9/16 and commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. Maybe this is the guy? Fred Thanks for doing those searches Fred, and thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions, plenty for me to investigate further. Regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 March , 2006 Share Posted 15 March , 2006 Nice work in Cheadle John. Thank you. As you probably know, I had only one uncommemorated from the couple of hundred on the local memorials (recently accepted by CWGC). With my current project, I've researched approx. 1200 names on other Stockport memorials. It's possible that there may be another 4 uncommemorated. It's working out at a pretty low rate of possibles. John (PS: My advice to my namesake remains as my earlier posts - don't make any presumptions without evidence to support it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 19 March , 2006 Share Posted 19 March , 2006 I have transcribed over 300 civic war memorials in Kent for the excellent www.roll-of-honour.com (Martin Edwards take a bow). I have a list of 104 men who I can not trace on CWGC. I suspect that the vast majority of these men will be non coms. So that makes a grand total for Kent of about 150 men including Ashford! I have a further estimated 1,100 Kent civic war memorials to finish transcribing (ably assisted by my good friend David Hughes). I am confident I shall find many many more forgotten men like this. Of course the true pioneer of this kind of work is John Morecombe (Jack Clegg) and his excellent website www.cwgc.co.uk. I don't want this thread to turn into "Iv'e done more than you" but I feel it is important to tell the truth as I see it. As I have already said, left to the government / MoD / CWGC NOTHING would be done to find these forgotten men. The donkey work is left to the likes of us. I think this an utter disgrace. The situation is not helped by those who keep insisiting there is NOT a problem. There certainly is and more of us are taking the time to prove it. There will of course always be people who prefer to believe in a myth. Chris Harley myself and a few others are certainly not amongst them... THEIR NAMES CERTAINLY DO NOT LIVE FOREVER MORE!!! It's up to the likes of us to tell the truth... Those that take the time to identify men like this and then submit cases to the MoD (via the CWGC) for belated commemoration should be very proud of themselves. I do know that there are those on this forum who have done so and I admire them tremendously. Regards and best wishes to all Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 19 March , 2006 Share Posted 19 March , 2006 Of course the true pioneer of this kind of work is John Morecombe Indeed, he is. John's meticulous seeking after the facts should be an inspiration to us all interested in this sort of research. Certainly it has been for me. I'm interested to know who you suggest says that there is not a problem or that it is a myth. Certainly, I can't think of anyone who takes that position (not even the Commission, IMO - and my views about how they deal with submissions is well documented on this Forum). John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Indeed, he is. John's meticulous seeking after the facts should be an inspiration to us all interested in this sort of research. Certainly it has been for me. I'm interested to know who you suggest says that there is not a problem or that it is a myth. Certainly, I can't think of anyone who takes that position (not even the Commission, IMO - and my views about how they deal with submissions is well documented on this Forum). John Why YOU of course John. You are the only desenting voice on this thread... You are the person that implied the numbers involved were much smaller. Regards Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 22 March , 2006 Share Posted 22 March , 2006 Neil Frankly, I don't understand how you come to that conclusion from my posts. Please point me to my comment where you think I have indicated that "uncommemorated men" is a myth. Such a position would be nonsensical - over recent weeks there have been regular posts from Terry Denham advising the Forum over men finally commemorated. I have even posted myself about a man. Please point me to where you think I indicate that this is not a problem. Such a statement would be not only nonsensical but is really quite offensive. My comments about how CWGC deals with cases is well documented on this Forum. Please go and look for them. What I do accept is that I question, to some extent, a claim of 45,000 missing. It is speculation. No more. No less. Any claim to a number is speculation. The very nature of "uncommemorated men" means it can only be speculation. Frankly, to take any other position (and this is where I do dissent from the Campaign) is nonsensical. Damn fine propaganda, though. My point, in contributing to this thread, was to suggest that anyone who finds someone commemorated on a war memorial but uncommemorated by CWGC should not leap to a conclusion (any conclusion). What they should do is undertake some basic research to establish the facts of the case to their own satisfaction and proceed from there. Surely you do not disagree with that?? If you do, then I am more than happy to accept that I do, indeed, dissent from your analysis. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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