Gas and Flamethrowers

[Robert Dunlop]

Bill, the light horse would still have had to dig a few dunnies mate.

Robert

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bill, the light horse would still have had to dig a few dunnies mate.

Robert

Robert

G'day mate

LOL

That dunny joke undermined my whole thesis.

Here is a trench map that proves your story.

Cheers

Bill

[manchester terrier]

Wow Bob, cheers for the comprehensive reply! You certainly know your stuff.

The British use of compressed air or oxygen( !!!!! ) as propellents seems incredibly stupid. Its so obvious that you should use an inert gas, even I (with only O-level chemistry!) can work that one out!!

Whoever came up with that idea wasn't much of a hands on bloke. If he was he would have known about not lubricating oxygen bottle threads on welding plant because of the fire risk, and therefore realised that oxygen as a propellent was a no no.

Very intersting that the Germans used propellent gas at a lower pressure than I expected and pressurised the complete kit up; instead of the gas being in a storage bottle at a far higher pressure and regulated down to working pressure. As you say, it must have simplified the design, kept the weight down and would be safer from the point of view of tanks being ruptured.

Youre right about napalm, petrol thicked with 25% oleic acids, 25% naphthenic acids derived from crude oil, and 50% palmitic acids derived from coconut oil. This gave it a longer burn time like your German thick oils mix.

A fascinating subject area Bob and a pleasure to read your knowledgable posts .

Cheers

Baz

[Plan]

Here is a report, annexed to war diaries, about a "Liquid Fire" raid on a Canadian trench section near Lens in 1918 (21st Battalion):

Page 1: http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e039/e000962037.jpg

Page 2: http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e039/e000962038.jpg

The War Diary for that day: http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e039/e000962022.jpg

The map: http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e039/e000962052.jpg

Pascal

[bob lembke]

Pascal;

Thanks for the information. I checked with my time line for the topic of FW, and this engagement was not listed. However, I checked the death roll of Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer), and Pionier Otto Schmidt is listed as having fallen in action on 3/4/18 at Lens, he was a Flamm=Pionier of 1. Kompagnie. However, this attack is not listed in any other source. The death roll also includes missing in action, but I do not know if a prisoner who later returned from captivity remained in the death roll as missing or was removed. I strongly suspect that returned prisoners were removed from the death roll, unless the return of the POW was unknown to the veteran's association. Men captured also were generally reported in due course to the German Army through the Red Cross and should not have been recorded as "fallen" or "missing". The death roll was compiled by the veteran's association of the flame units from the very complete war-time records still possessed by the unit CO long after the war.

At this time each flame company had one Zug (platoon) specially structured for being detached and attached to one of the German storm battalions for flame support, rather than for attacks conducted by the flame units themselves. Some storm unit officers and NCOs were trained by the flame units to understand the proper utilization of this weapon. Pionier Schmidt may have been on such detached duty, which would have explained why the history of the G=R=P=R did not mention this attack. My father was attached for such duty to the famous Storm Battalion Rohr, which also was a pioneer unit, in late 1916 at Verdun.

I have entered the scans into my computer files and annotated my time-line to note this attack and my possession of these four pages of source material.

Thanks for your help; in this manner I am slowly building a history of this aspect of WW I.

Bob Lembke

[Ozzie]

Malte has posted this photo

 

Bob, Bean's Official History would be a good place to start for info on mining at Anzac.

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/chapter.asp?volume=2

http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/chapter.asp?volume=3

Cheers

Kim

[bob lembke]

Robert

G'day mate

LOL

That dunny joke undermined my whole thesis.

Here is a trench map that proves your story.

Cheers

Bill

Bill;

For the non-initiate, can you say a bit more about the trench map? From the date and the context, I assume that it is of ANZAC beachhead positions. What are the trench features marked in red? The entrances to mine galleries?

Bob Lembke

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bob

G'day mate

In the first instance, thanx for the further info - you are an incredibly generous person to share such quality information with a novice like me on the operations of flame throwers.

Now to the trench map.

The map itself is from Gallipoli illustrating the trenches of the 3rd Infantry Brigade comprising the front for the 10th and 11th Battalions drawn up on 9 May 1915.

The map was posted by me as part of a fun exchange between Robert Dunlop - as opposed to Bob Lembke - [giving the impression that we know have two bob - a few more and we'll be the full quid ] who suggested the light horse still had to do some mining to dig dunnies.

What are the trench features marked in red?

This map illustrates the veracity of his comment - the red circles indicate where the dunnies are located.

The entrances to mine galleries?

I suppose on that basis, it could be mining activity of sorts.

Hope this clarifies things for you mate.

Cheers

Bill

[bob lembke]

Bob

G'day mate

This map illustrates the veracity of his comment - the red circles indicate where the dunnies are located.

I suppose on that basis, it could be mining activity of sorts.

Hope this clarifies things for you mate.

Cheers

Bill

Bill;

Things were clearer, but not totally clarified, so I just got the opinion of my "Super-Wife" (4" taller and 20 years younger than I, reads 11 European languages well, reads many more badly, things like Old Norse; i.e., Viking-speak, a weight-lifter, and who, of all hand-guns, only likes to shoot the .44 Magnum.) Megan, who has worked in England as an archeologist several times, and took courses at Oxford a couple of times, tells me that a "dunny" is what we in the US might call a "crapper".

So I will probably not put your trench-map in my family history time-line; probably not germaine (no pun intended) to my father's mining activities.

Bob Lembke

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bob

G'day mate

LOL

Cheers

Bill

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Bob

G'day mate

Megan, who has worked in England as an archeologist several times, and took courses at Oxford a couple of times, tells me that a "dunny" is what we in the US might call a "crapper".

Au contraire mon ami.

This is a picture of the unfortuantely named Crapper, [Charles] before his evacuation [an unfortunate use of the term] to Malta and the bitter irony of him dying of dysentry in 1915. Some people have every reason to hate their parents for the thoughtless names given to them. Who would have thought that the descendents of Thomas Crapper would have to bear the ignominity of the sobriquet arising from his name on the day he proudly accepted the appointment as thr Royal Toilet cleaner. History is indeed filled with cruel and unusual twists.

So whenever you think of Crapper, spare a penny for this fellow for his name is immortalised in your comment.

Cheers

Bill

[bob lembke]

Who would have thought that the descendents of Thomas Crapper would have to bear the ignominity of the sobriquet arising from his name on the day he proudly accepted the appointment as thr Royal Toilet cleaner. History is indeed filled with cruel and unusual twists.

So whenever you think of Crapper, spare a penny for this fellow for his name is immortalised in your comment.

Cheers

Bill

I had heard that Thomas Crapper was a plumber who "invented" the flush toilet.

Speaking of toilets and Turkey, I have twice (once with each wife) visited the ruins of Epheses, the former Roman capital of Asia Minor, roughly about 150 miles south of Gallipoli. They have an excellent amphitheater, where St. Paul (I think, I am a right heathen) tried to preach to the Ephesians, who hooted and booed for about six hours, until the authorities arrested him for disturbing the peace. He then had to leave town, which is why he had to write his "Letter to the Ephesians" to get his message across, having been run out of town.

About 50 meters north of the north gate/edge of the amphitheater is a 46 hole "public pooper", nicely done in marble, which, when in operation, was flushed continually with water. It also featured a small marble podrum, that, instead of three Olympians, featured a musical trio to provide soothing music that probably muffled some of the more gritty bodily functions. This facility probably dates from the First Century BC.

This facility was created by Romanized locals who were not Turks, but I am fairly sure that many upper-class Turks in say 1700 AD had what might pass for flush toilets. They had lots of running water, for all sorts of purposes, and their religion perscribed considerable cleanliness, including extensive washing five times a day before prayer. Europe at this time was rather squalid, generally.

Bob Lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

So whenever you think of Crapper, spare a penny for this fellow for his name is immortalised in your comment.

Cheers

Bill

Saw the QSA to this poor man on a dealers list.....

158. Q.S.A. 1 Bar Cape Colony. Pte. G. Shitlegg. 22nd Coy. 2nd Imp. Yeo. Died of enteric fever on 12-12-1900

at Maitland. Copy papers. (NEF) £205

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

Chris

G'day mate

When I see the name of an Indian soldier in Palestine as Dikshit, it is hard to realise that it is actually pronounced "Dix - it". Someday I will not smurk but not today.

Cheers

Bill

[Robert Dunlop]

Forgive me but, quite apart from the need to preserve the dignity and respect these men deserve, please remember that close relatives may be members of the Forum.

Robert

[De Petrowski Alexander]

In the book "Diary of an Old Contemptible" Edward Roe (transferred to 6th E Lancs) gives tribute to the chivalry of the Turks on Gallipoli. The footnote says "This statement of the clean fighting Turk was widely held within the regiment and was based on the knowledge that the Turks had refused German offers of poison gas and flamethrowers". Can anyone confirm? Phil B

As mentioned elsewhere, it was very difficult to deliver German or Austrian-hungarian supplies to Turkey before the entry of Bulgaria in the war and the following collapse of Serbia late 1915.

The Turks did not have a viable industry, whether Guns, Rifles, aircraft, Poison Gas, Gasmasks or Engines, almost all came from the two main Central Powers,

The Turks probably felt that it was unwise to use Poison Gas and/or flamethrowers at Gallipoli because

1) the difficulty / impossibility in obtaining or producing them (including gasmasks)

2) the certainty that their British and French enemy could and would reply in kind, in numbers and amounts the Turks could never hope to match.

[PhilB]

1) the difficulty / impossibility in obtaining or producing them (including gasmasks)

2) the certainty that their British and French enemy could and would reply in kind, in numbers and amounts the Turks could never hope to match.

That being the case, would it have been militarily advantageous to the Allies to use the weapons? Phil B

[bob lembke]

That being the case, would it have been militarily advantageous to the Allies to use the weapons? Phil B

Gas warfare was in its infancy then, and mostly was based on cylinder release. The British sent 6000 cylinders of gas and some men but of course they would have had to use magic to get the gas to flow uphill at either bridgehead. I don't know if they had gas shells yet, but surely would have had the first trials on the West Front.

The first British flame thrower (FW) attack was on July 1, 1916. (A mouldy donut to the first five people to guess where.) I don't know if the French had done one by late 1915, probably a few. The Germans had the only viable FW arm that early in the war, but it was at an early phase then itself, they could not have gotten there, and the devices would not have been easily re-fueled or maintained there.

Bob Lembke

[PhilB]

The British sent 6000 cylinders of gas and some men but of course they would have had to use magic to get the gas to flow uphill at either bridgehead.Bob Lembke

/quote]

Not if there was a breeze/wind? Phil B

PS Bob - I thought it would have been nice if our "ethnic" members could have ethnic forum ranks, until I saw that the German Army equivalent to Major is - Major! Ah well, soon be Oberstleutnant!