German Soldiers Chained To Machine Gun

[ph0ebus]

What this thread has taught me is that "Unchained Melody" is undoubtedly a pre-war Prussian ditty.

-Daniel

[Steven Broomfield]

I'm interested that no modern equivalent stories seem to have emerged, either from WW2 (Japanese machine-gunners, for example), or even the Taleban.

Presumably modern m.g. operatives wouldn't necessarily chain themselves (sooo 1900's): cable tie, maybe?

[ph0ebus]

I'm interested that no modern equivalent stories seem to have emerged, either from WW2 (Japanese machine-gunners, for example), or even the Taleban.

Presumably modern m.g. operatives wouldn't necessarily chain themselves (sooo 1900's): cable tie, maybe?

I would think this is a function of their very different style of fighting (i.e., human bombs and IEDs, and the old-fashioned rat-a-tat-tat). So far in poking around, quite a bit on atrocities committed by Taliban but nothing in this vein per se, save this:

A Taliban commander then chained and held him underground for 17 days. For three of those days he was beaten, he said.

Asad’s family sent a tribal delegation to press his captors to release him. Asad said that after a guard left him alone on July 27, he fled, found a taxi and took it to the Afghan border.

In our phone call, Asad denied cooperating with the guards during our captivity and said that he had carried a gun because the Taliban had ordered him to do so. In the end, I believe that Asad played along with the Taliban to survive.

From here...

-Daniel

[SiegeGunner]

Perhaps the Taliban could be persuaded to chain themselves to their IEDs in a show of bravado ...

[egbert]

As seen here, British archeologysts could not resist to dug out the memorial to the "Chained Machine Gunner" surrounded by many myths. Although put to rest by many colleagues who found the memorial earlier, the new group wanted to highlight new evidence to the existence of chained MGunners by exhibiting the figure to the world once again. The memorial to the chained MGunner stays an enigma though, because it is buried (and will be reburied) in British soil only. The many scientists dealing with this matter have no explanation why this memorial to the chained MGunner only and always shows up in the UK.

Anyway fact is:

- there is a memorial to the chained MGunner

- always found by British scientists

- substantiated by accompanying primary sources

- dissenters are succesfully proven wrong

- the greatest WW! forum, the GWF, believes in the chained MGunner

Personally I am convinced by these facts and continue to fight here any dissenting opinion by those who try to make me believe there were no chained MGunners in the German Army.

[fritz]

Thanks egbert about this clear explanation and this pic as evidence.

Is it fact that even today the machinegunners in the German army are equipped with chains?

Fritz

[Muerrisch]

As seen here, British archeologysts could not resist to dug out the memorial to the "Chained Machine Gunner" surrounded by many myths. Although put to rest by many colleagues who found the memorial earlier, the new group wanted to highlight new evidence to the existence of chained MGunners by exhibiting the figure to the world once again. The memorial to the chained MGunner stays an enigma though, because it is buried (and will be reburied) in British soil only. The many scientists dealing with this matter have no explanation why this memorial to the chained MGunner only and always shows up in the UK.

Anyway fact is:

- there is a memorial to the chained MGunner

- always found by British scientists

- substantiated by accompanying primary sources

- dissenters are succesfully proven wrong

- the greatest WW! forum, the GWF, believes in the chained MGunner

Personally I am convinced by these facts and continue to fight here any dissenting opinion by those who try to make me believe there were no chained MGunners in the German Army.

Is this meant to be a hoax? I see no machine gun, and I see no chain, and the whole thing looks like a set-up.

I am not a dissenter, I just need evidence better than presented so far.

[SiegeGunner]

In the second unpleasantness, young men willingly harnessed themselves into structures equipped with no less than eight Browning machine guns ...

[egbert]

No Grumpy, this indeed is the memorial only, the memorial to the Chained Machine Gunner. Symbolicly the MGunner's hands are chained as seen in picture. I hope you are convinced by now that the German MG crews were chained . For me it is a fact , the only open question is: were some even chained to the ammunition?

[truthergw]

I am sure that I read somewhere that there is a clause in the Genevre convention which specifically forbids chaining men to ammunition smaller than 6 LBs or 3 Kilos in weight.

[egbert]

Yes Tom thats true I think it is article 4711, but it refers to ordinary soldiers only, MGunners are explicitely allowed to be chained as these samples prove.

[truthergw]

It seems to me that these soldiers are in fact chained to giant fish hooks. Some form of shock troops perhaps?

[Muerrisch]

ah! so the thread is indeed a 1st April saga, a bit like Mornington Crescent.

[Steven Broomfield]

It seems to me that these soldiers are in fact chained to giant fish hooks. Some form of shock troops perhaps?

Sorry to carp, but those soldiers are not machine gunners.

I think that photo is a red herring, and proof that Egbert is floundering in trying to find "real" evidence. On the other hand, he is the sole mover in all this, so maybe we shouldn't see his actions as totally bass.

A photo of chained machine gunners, please, not riflemen.

[Muerrisch]

I think this thread could with advantage be transferred to Skindles ........ it is sufficiently bizarre.

[egbert]

I think this thread could with advantage be transferred to Skindles ........ it is sufficiently bizarre.

This would be too great, as the title itself is so bizarre. But I believe some smart a$$ would open this same topic in a couple of days or weeks again. Some British myths will just not die out.

P.S. The British scientists who unearthed the memorial to the chained MGunner in order to prove their theory got a severe setback when some foreign nationals destroyed their evidence

[nthornton1979]

"A myth about the Germans' cruelty in chaining their machine-gunners to their guns was repeated in accounts of Fromelles. The reality was that these troops wore a harness to enable them to drag a heavy machine gun to a new position."

'Fromelles - 1916' - Paul Cobb (p61)

I'm just reading his now and although it doesn't add much to the thread here it is anyway

p.s- Sorry for reviving THIS thread again !

Neil

[Herekawe]

It is a fairly pervasive myth.

This photo is from the QE11 Museum, containted in Glyn Harpers book "Images of War" .

The original caption on this photo is

"To the last- a German machine gunner. An unsung hero of the other side"

The editor has added

"Courage was admired by both sides in he war. Some machine gunners like the hero in this photograph, strapped themselves to their guns to prevent them from leaving their posts." NAM 1994-3346

Looks to me like the poor chap has gotten entangled in it somehow.

James

[SiegeGunner]

An expert may correct me, but that looks like an MG 08/15 in belt-fed mode, which is a 'light' machine gun with a bipod mount that can be carried by one man and is designed to be moved rapidly from one position to another, hence the carrying strap attached at one end to the water-jacket. The thing loosely looped around the gunner's body looks more like a smooth-sided hose than a braided rope and doesn't appear to be any kind of restraint.

Not the case here, I think, but in some sectors where men and equipment were prone to being buried during bombardments, gunners would fit a 'leash' to their gun - to help indicate where the gun was, and assist in pulling it out. German accounts, especially from the earlier part of the war, always emphasise the efforts made to safeguard and retrieve machine guns.

[Andrew Upton]

Looks to me like the poor chap has gotten entangled in it somehow.

I agree, I'm not so hot on the 08/15 Maxim but the bit coming off the main top part of the gun is just the steam hose, and I would supsect the rest is more of the same.

[trenchtrotter]

Spot on re the MG08/15. The smooth steam hose is fitted to its valve top rear of water jacket and draped over the gunners body. The belt is the 250 round maxim belt used by both the MG 08 and MG 08/15. The 08/15 had a smaller belt for the drum magazine (125 rounds I think). The 08/15 had a shoulder strap that fitted to the rear butt and then a loop around the jacket. It was a portable gun to give the Germans the same tactical flexibility as the lewis gave the British but it was never as good and as all compramises was not the best option.

I am not a believer of gunners chained to their weapons but do believe casualties with the dragging straps attatched to the MG 08 would have fuelled the myth.

TT

[Guest]

I found this in The Backwash of War

Mike

[truthergw]

Any context to that quote, Mike? Interesting to see what was presumably, " tu", translated as " thou".

[Guest]

Any context to that quote, Mike? Interesting to see what was presumably, " tu", translated as " thou".

Sorry Tom. Yes. If you click on the link, and go to the online book, it's at the end of the first chapter, titled " Heroes " A Nurse quoting something she heard one patient say to another.

Cheers Mike

[truthergw]

Hmm. Printed 1916 in USA. Author spent many months 10 kilometres behind the French lines in Belgium. Not impossible, I suppose but I don't think I would hang a thesis on it as evidence of chaining men to their machine guns.