German Soldiers Chained To Machine Gun

[Michael Johnson]

Are we including the crucified soldier or not? Don't forget the Angels of Mons, they still had the snow on their boots.

Darn! How could I have forgotten those?

[Gibbo]

A Russian regiment, with snow on their boots, attacked a German position in Gallipoli in order to retrieve the crucified corpse of a Canadian soldier. The position was defended by a Turkish woman who was chained to a machine gun that was firing reversed bullets. The Germans would bayonet her baby if she ceased fire. The Russians kept on coming, urged on by an angel, but disappeared into some mysteriously shaped clouds, and were never seen again. Years later, a film was made which blamed a posh English officer for the whole thing. Mel Gibson was in it.

Edited 7 April , 2010 by Gibbo

[Michael Johnson]

The Canadian soldier was played by an American actor.

[truthergw]

Was there popcorn on sale in the foyer?

[bob lembke]

Don't worry, Bob. We know you didn't do it but those babies on bayonets! How could you?

My father came to the US in 1926, and evidentally the theatres were still full of atrocity movies. He said that they were on two levels of sophistication. At the basic level there is fighting on the West Front, and suddenly there is a German bayonet charge, and, sure enough, each German soldier charges with a Belgian baby impaled on his bayonet.

Then there were movies at a higher level of sophistication. Someone (a war correspondent?) approaches a monocaled German officer, and says something like: "Don't your soldiers always charge with Belgian babies on their bayonets?" And the stiff officer responds: "Of course not! What military advantage would that provide?" The movies so annoyed him, plus his being upset at Hollywood adaptions of classics by Jack London and the like that horribly mangled great literature, that he didn't go to the movies for the last 50 years of his life.

I have poked thru a lot of WW I propaganda books, and, like the movies, they displayed a great range of sophistication; some books by Harvard and Oxford professors, very sophisticated, and some books that were so utterly absurd and even physically impossible that it is amazing that the most common dolt would believe them for a second.

Bob

[Shenkie]

A Russian regiment, with snow on their boots, attacked a German position in Gallipoli in order to retrieve the crucified corpse of a Canadian soldier. The position was defended by a Turkish woman who was chained to a machine gun that was firing reversed bullets. The Germans would bayonet her baby if she ceased fire. The Russians kept on coming, urged on by an angel, but disappeared into some mysteriously shaped clouds, and were never seen again. Years later, a film was made which blamed a posh English officer for the whole thing. Mel Gibson was in it.

Sounds like a fantastic Hollywood movie, don't forget all the American flags waving around

[Michael Johnson]

Or was it the Turkish woman sniper who got Manfred von Richtofen?

[SiegeGunner]

Or was it the Turkish woman sniper who got Manfred von Richtofen?

Nah, they were on the same side. It was the Australian woman fighter pilot wot got him ...

[Rob Connolly]

I think Thucydides trumps all these arguments. IIRC, he states that Greek warships were propelled by oarsmen who were *not* chained to their oars, as this would completely defeat the object of being a warship propelled by oarsmen who wanted to fight. Move this argument forward two thousand five hundred years and there you go, except for "trireme" read "MG08/15".

[James Kastner]

Just to add fuel to the topic.

Skipman has been diligent in posting to the Virtual Library and I noticed this one:

True stories of the great war, 6 Volumes

 

On page 41 of Volume 5 I ran across a passage by Fredrick Palmer. Granted he's an American coorespondent, but it's about as close to a period account as can be...Palmer lends a valid argument to this being true.

[Jack Sheldon]

James

Thank you for pointing this out. It is certainly another interesting example of how delusion fuels myth and vice versa. In fact it is as true to reality as those 'frontline reports' of the Vietnam war, which used to be filed from the bars of Saigon. I am afraid that, whatever Palmer thought, or claimed to know, b----cks remains just that, no matter how often it is repeated.

Jack

[bob lembke]

James;

One merely have to click on the title pages of the volumes you cite, and all six volumes of the series were published in 1917. Some American war-time books included the month as well as the year of publication, and I have noted a great surge in the publication of war-time propaganda literally on the month that the US declared war. Evidentally many books had been prepared beforehand and were only waiting for the almost ineviatable eventual declaration of war to set up the printing presses. The nation was swept with an organized war hysteria and Wilson had begun filling the prisons with people that were deemed unreliable. A couple of years ago I was approached by a feature length film producer to conduct research on a specific corner of this question, and the material that turned up during my poking about was quite surprising, although I had some understanding of the problem before that research.

I make careful use of the reporting of, for example, American correspondents present at the fighting in Belgium in 1914, who sometimes offered useful observations of events that they witnessed, and who usually openly stated that they were partial to the Belgians and the Allies in general. 1917? Forget it.

I have found clear evidence of specific cooperation between American publishers in 1917 and 1918 and UK publishers in the grinding out of war propaganda, which in Britain was centrally directed by the government in a very large effort. I have heard, from a reputable source, of the existence and location of an unusual British document detailing this effort, to the detail of listing one by one over 1000 books whose publication was surrepticiously (sp?) and secretly subsidized by the British government.

I have studied the German Army in WW I an average of about five hours a day for the last nine years, largely in German, French, and several other languages. However, I have read about 30 or 50 American books from 1917 and 1918. There are several themes that reoccur so frequently that one wonders if someone from "central casting" in Washington was circulating a list of talking points, and "chained to machine guns" was at the top of the list.

This may be an unfair or even inaccurate comment, but all through this prolonged discussion I do not recall anyone promoting the idea that actually seemed to know much about the German Army in WW I. I have not scrolled thru this long thread in a long time, so this comment is not aimed at any Pal in particular. Nor can I recall anyone who actually "saw" this manifestation, the stories are second or third-hand stories, or are simply flat assertions without any attribution at all.

Bob Lembke

[AndyHollinger]

Were the German Army Officer corps ALL Illuminatti?

How did the Free Masons get ALL of this accomplished?

Did the Elders of Zion take a nap and allow all their secrets to be known?

I have Palmer's books and they really are quite a laugh.

[bob lembke]

James;

Jack and Andy are both extremely able students of the German Army who have written several excellent books on it, certainly two of the very most knowledgable Pals on the topic on the Forum, out of 60,000-odd present and former Pals. I think you can get the drift of their opinion of this fable.

Building on Andy's observation, If you want to have another example I can give you one where the British government had a particular program, which included a year-long lecture tour of the US and Canada, and even a commissioned Hollywood feature-length movie (The "Private Peet" project), which described the heroic and mysterous British major, who flew his aircraft from Switzerland to Flanders, swooping low over the lines, shouting encouragement to the front-line Allies soldiers in a voice so loud that they could be clearly heard by the front-line troops over the roar of his engine. Really! After the war (1923) Private Peet wrote a passionate renunciation of war-time propaganda. However, his wife wrote an even nuttier book, which among 100 things said that German agents, during the war, were constructing large concrete foundations alongside main UK rail lines, so that they could later bring up and emplace heavy artillery to shell and blow up British troop trains as they traveled to the coast to sent the troops to France. She also, in 1918, urges really serious ethnic riots and mob brutality against UK residents with some German blood (the Royal Family?), saying that earlier riots were much too tame and not violent enough. She also went on about the need to violently suppress the Irish.

If you want another 30 fantastic stories, I will put aside a few hours and type them out. This wave of propaganda served vital war-time purposes, but it has poisoned the historical record for the following 100 years. I have read materials written in 10 languages (some very painfully) from about 15-17 countries contemporarily on WW I matters, and there is nothing like the stuff ground out by the UK/Belgian government in exile/France in English aimed at the US and Canada. However, for example, in my opinion the stuff the French allowed in French for their own population is different, often quite candid and honest.

Bob

[James Kastner]

So Bob, you're telling me that the Hun wasn't actually covered in fur with large fangs molesting half naked women ?

Oh how I've been trifled with...

All in good humor Bob.

With all the satirical arguments being presented in this thread I felt it would be benificial to produce a period piece albeit questionable, as to an actual report.

Just adding to the conversation and agreeing with you.

regards,

Jim

[jdajd]

Off topic, but on topic with some of the more spectre related stories does anyone know the source or have a source for the following:

Weldon, British Soccer Player killed in 1915, then seen during the Battle of Amiens in

1918 bouncing a soccer ball while wearing a jersey and shorts?

It was posted on another WWI site and I had never heard this one before. Any help.

Jon (chained to my computer as an act of defiance)

[Rob Connolly]

Aha! I think I may have found the source for the original post on this thread, back in 2006:

Mr Middlebrook states: " - a German machine-gunner was found chained to his gun at Montauban, opposite to where the 7th Queen's & 8th East Surreys attacked. " I haven't got "The First Day On The Somme" so I don't know if the Official History is credited or footnoted, but -

In the Shearer edition of the Official History December 1915 - July 1916, on Page 339 the main text describes an assault by 30th Division, of which the 53rd and 54th Brigades took part, of whom the 7th Queens and East Surreys were a part -both battalions mentioned by the original poster. The 6th Royal Berkshires were also in the assault on 1/7/1916, and to quote " - some 60 Germans holding the Loop surrendered to this battalion." The 2nd Footnote to this paragraph states "A wounded Bavarian who had chained himself to his machine gun was found".

Jack Sheldon's original response above still holds true. At several points in the OH text German machine gun teams are described as pulling back to avoid capture, presumably using their harnesses to do so. Not only that, and contrary to the above footnote, Edmonds in the text is at pains to point out the gallant and self-sacrificing conduct of German machine-gun teams who fight to the death, despite being isolated, flanked, outnumbered and about to be overwhelmed. No mention of chaining to guns. In fact, in the 1st footnote on Page 339, directly above the one I quoted above, the following is written: " One German machine-gunner, a grey-headed, elderly man, with a pile of empty cartridge cases nearly as high as the gun, was found dead, still holding on to it's handle"

I don't suppose this will kill the legend, but it might point to one source.

[truthergw]

Aha! I think I may have found the source for the original post on this thread, back in 2006:

Mr Middlebrook states: " - a German machine-gunner was found chained to his gun at Montauban, opposite to where the 7th Queen's & 8th East Surreys attacked. " I haven't got "The First Day On The Somme" so I don't know if the Official History is credited or footnoted, but -

............................

I don't suppose this will kill the legend, but it might point to one source.

In Penguin Military History series, Pp 186/7. Middlebrook gives Public Record Office, CAB/189 as his source.

[SiegeGunner]

I have absolutely no doubt that the German MG carrying-harness is what sustained this myth, but I've also always been prepared to entertain the possibility that a German machine-gunner did indeed once chain himself to his gun in an act of bravado. Was there not a myth/legend from antiquity of a warrior who, facing impossible odds and knowing that he must fight to the death, bound himself to a tree in order not to fall before he was dead or incapable of fighting any longer? Or am I thinking of Prometheus?

[egbert]

I am very much convinced that the German commanding officers ordered their NCOs to chain each and every machine gunner to each available MG. This suppose to be an imperative measure to prevent the German soldiers to defect from their posts. There are proven examples (don't know exactly right now where I read it) that chained machine gunners were found even in the aftermath of the battle, begging the Brits for being unchained. It is also a fact (don't remember where I read it though) that the German combat effectiveness was much better when the elite MGunners where cross-chained with special Krupp manufactured chains. I am also convinced that many British readers here are with me and trust my latest research into this highly interesting matter. As I can read German, I can tell you that the German prime sources are full of examples of chained MGunners. More, sometimes the MG support squad was also chained to their ammunition supply waggons which caused the MGunners desperately calling for resupply in vain and which consequently caused lots of losses amongst the frontline gunners. A tragic but drastic German measure which did not help them win the war.

[nthornton1979]

No doubt true !

I remember an account of a carrier pigeon flying through the air whilst chained to his cage.

Neil

[SiegeGunner]

The operative word, as far as I am concerned, is 'bravado' - an exaggerated pantomime gesture, perhaps to make an impression on inexperienced troops nearby, perhaps a response to a suggestion that MG changes of location had more to do with self-preservation than with moving to a better enfilading position. I don't for one moment believe that anyone was ever chained to a gun by someone else, or that anyone who did it 'for show' would have fastened himself so securely that he couldn't release himself in an instant.

[truthergw]

Egbert, behave! The report quoted by Middlebrook makes it quite obvious that the gunner chained himself to the gun as an act of bravado. This is the same report as the middle aged gunner with the pile of cartridge cases as high as the gun. Interestingly, the chained man was wounded, not killed and in the quote is described as " probably a Bavarian" and " a real tough".

[egbert]

For those who still do not believe: I have just found a German primary source from the book "Chained but not forgotten" by Baron von Lüghausen: he describes so vividly the - yes almost supernatural- efforts by chained MGunners to man their equipment in time after the enemy artillery drum fire halted. When the chained had to rush out of their deep dugouts to encounter the attacking Brits, they used a special so called duck-waddle method to exit the narrow stairways. Usually they were 3 chained to the MGs, with 2 of them kind of dog-leashed to the equipment in order to rush behind each other through the narrow trenches to reach their firing position .

[truthergw]

In idle moments, it has occurred to me that the enterprising storm troopers of the Kaiserschlacht, whose objective was the gunlines, might just possibly have found some unfortunate undergoing FP1 and chained to a gun. What tales that might have that inspired! I must admit that I have never read any such report. Stormtroopers too slow or prisoners too fast? We may never know.