barrieduncan Posted 5 January , 2006 Share Posted 5 January , 2006 Hi People, Think i'm asking the possible here but if anyone can help, they will be on this forum Here is a picture of my great gramps, Thomas Hutchison Gardiner in the garb of the 11th Hussars. He was in this regiment for certain in 1919. I'm wondering if this picture possibly earlier, ie WW1 era, or is it indeed postwar? I know he was in the hussars at that time from a postcard, but i'm trying to establish if he was in it during the war. The second picture is of my great gramps in the garb of the Lanarkshire Yeomanry (corporal in middle). The person who I got this pic from thinks its WW1 but I'm sure its postwar, can anyone say for certain? There does seem to be a few years between these pics and I believe this one is the later of the two. Any help with this will be great although I know my chances are slim to none. By the way, they do look quite different in these pics due to quality, but I can assure you, it is him in both Thanks, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 5 January , 2006 Share Posted 5 January , 2006 The only Thomas Gardiner in the Hussars that I found on the MIC's was 4th Hussars - and no middle initial. No Thomas H's in the Hussars. I suspect he was a post war soldier or didn't serve in theatre maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 5 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2006 Hey Mark, Welcome to my world of pain and frustration. I have an MIC to a T Gardiner in the 11th Hussars, No. 9271. This guy landed in france on 15/8/14. If this is my gramps, then he would have been 15 y/o - slightly young for a regular me thinks. There is the story of him lying about his age to join the army, but still, what would a Lanark lad of 15 be doing joining the 11th Hussars? I have seen loads of MICs for Thomas Gardiners, a few for T H Gardiners, and some Thomas Gardners in other Hussar regiments. I just cant seem to make any fit, and with the possible mispelling of the name and the question of the middle initial, its too many to download. Help please, this is tearing me up inside Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 5 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2006 (edited) By the way, my family are almost 100% sure that he did serve in WW1. My uncle seems to think that he served in and around the Med, Gallipolli etc? I don't know why he thinks this but he is pretty clued up on the family history. They may be totally mistaken, but I would like to know for sure If he was in that theatre, that would tie in more with the Lanarkshire Yeomanry, but again, no joy in that dept regarding MIC's. This has bugged me for years by the way, never found out one way or the other. Edited 5 January , 2006 by barrieduncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 There is always the possibility that he joined up underage under an assumed name. There is a Medal card of Gardiner, James Corps: Lanarkshire Yeomanry Regiment No: 1017 Rank: Private With the Lanarkshire Yeomanry and as you say, this would tie in with service in The Med and the Middle East. Many soldiers joined up under their father's name or an assumed name. It may be worth checking this out. What was his father's name. If it was James then there is a good chance that this is him, especially if he was underage. Also, the Lanarckshire Yeomanry served in France from June 1918, there is a chance he may have been transferred from the Lanarkshires to the 11th Hussars. Also, the National Archives may give you another lead. If they have his service records it would clear this mystery up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 6 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2006 Hi Ciaran, my great great grandfathers name was Alexander Gardiner. I'v did a fair bit of family research and can't find any James on that side of the family. There are several Thomas H Gardiners on the MICs, many of them from Scottish regiments, but I wouldn't have any way of confirming if they were him. I will have to plan a trip down the NA at some point I guess. I dunno if this means anything, but I know he did his training at Aldershot. Could this have anything to do with his regiment? Thanks, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 Just a thought - there are no medal ribbons visible on either pic, so say he did fight in WW1, and qualify for medals, these pics would have to be before they were issued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian turner Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 Barrie, My observations of the pictures are that: A. The first pic was taken before the second - he looks a lot younger. The pic looks like a first time in uniform/just completed basic training type of souvenir photo. B. The first photo is in a cavalry type uniform (with spurs). If the above is correct, then he served in the Hussars first and then the Lanarkshire Yeomanry. Maybe a cap badge ID will clarify? Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 6 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2006 (edited) Hi Ian, I would agree with you, the first picture is the earlier of the two. I just remembered that my gran (his daughter) has a large head-and-shoulders portrait of him hiding away in the back room. I'll need to have a look and see if there is any insignia in it that could possibly help. I'm pretty sure I have the cap badges correct, the first is 11th Hussars and the other is the Lanarkshire Yeomanry. What age would put him at in the first pic, anyone? Cheers guys, Barrie Edited 6 January , 2006 by barrieduncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 (edited) For two reasonsI am 100% sure he joined the 11th Hussars first, The 11th Hussars were based at Aldershot prior to WWI so the training at Aldershot would suggest that the regiment he first joined was the 11th Hussars. They fought the enitre war in France and Flanders and in 1919 they were sent to Egypt. in 1921 they were sent to India, Risalpur to be precise. The second and most obvious reason that we've all missed up until now is that the photo of the Lanarkshire Yeomany he is wearing Corporals stripes. He hasn't got them in the photo of him wearing the Hussars uniform. Now, there is a good chance that he served on both fronts at some point. My money is still on him joining the army under an assumed name. Edited 6 January , 2006 by Ciaran Byrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 6 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2006 Ciaran, where did you come across the information about where the Hussars served in 1919 and 1921? I have been looking for a book on the regimental history but havent seen any as yet. In 1919 my grampa was in Egypt, if my memory serves me correctly in a place called Abbyssia. My only concern with the assumed name (other than the unlikely chances of tracking him down ) is that on the correspondance I have seen to/from him in 1919, he is known as Thomas H Gardiner, wouldn't he have to keep the pretence up until he left the army? Incidently, him and my great gran got married in 1921 so i'm guessing he missed out on the trip to India. Would service in Egypt in 1919 have qualified for a victory medal or am I clutching at invisible straws? Thanks for all your help people, keep it coming, together we will prevail Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Crame Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 Ciaran, where did you come across the information about where the Hussars served in 1919 and 1921? I have been looking for a book on the regimental history but havent seen any as yet. In 1919 my grampa was in Egypt, if my memory serves me correctly in a place called Abbyssia. My only concern with the assumed name (other than the unlikely chances of tracking him down ) is that on the correspondance I have seen to/from him in 1919, he is known as Thomas H Gardiner, wouldn't he have to keep the pretence up until he left the army? Incidently, him and my great gran got married in 1921 so i'm guessing he missed out on the trip to India. Would service in Egypt in 1919 have qualified for a victory medal or am I clutching at invisible straws? Thanks for all your help people, keep it coming, together we will prevail Barrie That's Abyssinia. What's it say on the marriage certificate, any idea? My GGF is mentioned as a 16th Lancer Corporal on his under occupation. He may have left by then, or married on leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 6 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2006 (edited) I think Abyssinia is what is now known as Ethopia, or am I totally confused? Abbyssia is in Egypt as far as I can tell. Sure someone out there will know more. On his marriage cert he is given as a Steel Works Labourer, so I'm assuming he had left by then. Probably a terri in the Yeomanry at that point or not long after. Cheers Barrie Edited 6 January , 2006 by barrieduncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 6 January , 2006 Share Posted 6 January , 2006 (edited) Ciaran, where did you come across the information about where the Hussars served in 1919 and 1921? I have been looking for a book on the regimental history but havent seen any as yet. In 1919 my grampa was in Egypt, if my memory serves me correctly in a place called Abbyssia. My only concern with the assumed name (other than the unlikely chances of tracking him down ) is that on the correspondance I have seen to/from him in 1919, he is known as Thomas H Gardiner, wouldn't he have to keep the pretence up until he left the army? Incidently, him and my great gran got married in 1921 so i'm guessing he missed out on the trip to India. Would service in Egypt in 1919 have qualified for a victory medal or am I clutching at invisible straws? Thanks for all your help people, keep it coming, together we will prevail Barrie The info I got from the "Regiments" website. Its a great site for this kind of info. http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D11h.htm http://www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-cav/d11.htm As for the name, when he became the legal age he may have changed his real name, or he may have joined up pre-war as a boy soldier. Edited 6 January , 2006 by Ciaran Byrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 7 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 7 January , 2006 I had wondered about the boy soldier thing? The cavalry regiments did that didn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 7 January , 2006 Share Posted 7 January , 2006 There were examples of this. 'Tickled to Death to Go' provides some evidence for this. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Byrne Posted 7 January , 2006 Share Posted 7 January , 2006 Excellant book, well worth a read. Gives a good insight into a pre-war British Cavalry Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Drummond Posted 7 January , 2006 Share Posted 7 January , 2006 I've got a Gardner as a middle name, and during my Family tree search I've noticede a few mis spellings of the name; GardIner, GardEner, garner come to mind. It worth a look under another similar sounding name I've found. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 8 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Good point Jake. I'v searched for Gardiner, Gardner, and Gardener. I noticed on a couple of census returns my grampa is even known as Gairdiner. There do seem to be a few 'varients' to the name, either that or people wern't too good with their letters back then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Abbasia is a suburb of Cairo. There were a number of major camps there during and after WW1. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrymurland Posted 8 January , 2006 Share Posted 8 January , 2006 I have a similar picture of the Sussex Yeomanry during one of their Summer Camps on the Sussex Downs, all in tents and taken around 1912. Your pic of the yeomanry camp looks very much like the typical Yeomanry camps that took place each year. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 8 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Hi people, I just had a look at the larger photograph that my gran has. I found it lying behind a wardrope, all bent and frayed round the edges!!! I think it needs a new home In this picture (hopefully be able to get a pic of it soon and get your opinions) my great grandfather looks even younger than in the hussars picture. Its one of these portraits taken from a photograph, on thick card, roughly A3 size. In this one he is wearing a tunic (looks WW1 era) on which are collar badges and shoulder titles. The titles are too small to read, but the collar badges look very similar to RE badges. Collar insignia is something totally new to me, does this place the pic after WW1? I'll try and ID the regiments but I know it looks nothing like the 11th Hussars or the Lanarkshire Yeomanry. He isnt wearing a cap in this one. This is getting even more complicated than I thought. Thanks to everyone for all their help and apologies for going on and on about it, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 8 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2006 Had a very quick look and the 13th Hussars badge looks quite promising, although I cant be 100% correct. The shape looks to be the same, a laurel wreath surmounted by a kings crown. In the middle there are some roman numerals, I cant be 100% what they are without having the pic infront of me. The 13th looks very like it, but i think there maybe some kind of sphynx or lion sitting on top of the numerals, which seems to be absent in the 13th badge. I'll get a pic on asap, hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge will recognise it. Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 12 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2006 Hi people, This is a photograph of the picture I was talking about (above posts) and I wonder if anyone recognises the collar badge. I think it may be 13th Hussars but no 100% sure. Here is a close up (sorry about the quality) Any ideas anyone? Cheers, Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 13 January , 2006 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2006 sorry but i'm bumping this back up in the hope someone will know what collar badge he is wearing. Barrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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