Holts should reconsider

[Auimfo]

To be honest, I'm in agreement with Des.

Although I still maintain the quote in Holt's could be classed as truthful provided the original existence of the myth could be identified, there is no doubt that this particular myth is totally wrong and can be proved as such.

Therefore the quote in Holt's is unnecessary and as such should be withdrawn as it 'may' give readers the wrong impression about the Ulstermen. (even though I didn't read it that way)

Actually, it may be interesting to find out exactly when Holt's wrote this piece and whether that particular myth had been disproved by then. Perhaps they were simply writing what was understood to be the truth at that time and decided to 'play it down' rather than what is now viewed as exacerbating it.

Tim L.

I'm still dodging the corks!

[Mark Hone]

On the whole I've found the Holt's guides extremely useful over the years. For what its worth , like some other Pals I have always regarded the reference to the 36th Division as admiring rather than denigrating or condescending. I've noticed that the Holts have corrected the odd mistake in subsequent editions of their books. For example they used to claim (incorrectly) that the Dancox VC was won on the site of Langemark German cemetery, but I notice that their current description of this is more ambiguous as to the exact location. However they still erroneously claim that the two Australian VC winners buried at Tyne Cot won their awards for capturing the pillboxes preserved in the cemetery. I suspect that generations of battlefield tour guides have repeated this myth.

Edited 6 January , 2006 by Mark Hone

[Ozzie]

Have been reading this and have come up with two words. Perception and connotation.

The offending sentence is open to peoples perception of the Irish. That is what ever they have learnt about Ireland, so is very subjective.

Connotation -Ireland - whiskey - green - catholic - protestant.

brings to mind Anzacs - rowdy, alcohol and two up.

It depends on what people actually know about the subject. If you believed everything you read then all Aussies drink beer, BBQ shrimps and kill crocodiles.

Personally, I found the reference to be misleading, sounding like they were drunk, but I also had prior knowledge of the rum tots. Should some one read it who had not heard of rum tots being given in the trenches, some partaking, some not, then they may read this as soldiers being pissed.

I believe that it should be brought to the publishers attention along with supporting evidence so that the correct words can be used.

Regards

Kim

[Gunboat]

Tim - no need for helmets, keep yer bush hat on!

For the record - I give one example of how a number of authors have described the attack. Holts is the only case where I have seen it attributed to (in any degree) 'alcoholic bravura' .

"Another success had been won by the 36th Ulster Division, recruited from the Protestant Ulster Volunteer Force, which had opposed the Irish Home Rule bill of 1914. Their fiery militarism - perhaps fed by the only just quelled rebellion in Dublin of easter week - had won them a success unmatched by any other formation under Haig's command." Susanne Everett (wife of John Keegan) - in World War One.

Des, I am interested in why you should use the above example of alternative reporting as a better alternative to the one orginally cited (or so it seems to me you are suggesting and I apologise in advance if I am wrong) . I find the above, tainted as it is with the anti-catholic bigotary of the time, more offensive than the orginal quote and it paints all the men in the ulster division with the same sectarian brush, which is as unfair and unbalanced as citing "alcoholic bravura".

[Desmond7]

I think the answer that to one can be found in the official history of the Division itself.

If you go to my website (link below) and click on the 'Dead of the Somme' button, you will find that the 1st July Ulster Division was indeed a formation with a clear Orange/UVF/Protestant /Anti-home rule ethos.

I make no secret that my ancestry is in the Unionist tradition. But I am a child of MY time. They were children of their time. And, it is my honest opinion that while the 'Orange Sash' nature of the attack has been overplayed, it would be insulting and indeed, silly of me not to recognise the nature of the formation.

I think there is a tendency now to downplay the nature of the division ... having studied it for a long time it is my personal opinion that they were ordinary men who came from a part of the British Isles which felt under great threat from the Home Rule bill. Politics then, as now, tend to be divided along sectarian lines in Ireland (well certainly Northern Ireland) and these men were most definitely mainly drawn from the protestant/unionist constituency.

Therefore, I can't really take issue with the standard depiction of the unit (on 1st July 1916) as found in so many books etc. I am also aware that the formation's nature changed drastically, most apparently in the aftermath of Langemarck, with the break up of many service bns and the 'posting in' of regulars.

For instance in the latter part of the war, Father Gill of 2nd Royal Irish Rifles makes the point that a Divisional Mass was held for the Ulster Div .... 'something unthinkable when the Division was formed' ...

But this quote about alcoholic bravura deserved to be challenged outright.

Thanks for your very relevant question and I hope that the website - which also contains the Divisional history on-line (I believe it is the only place you will find it on the web) will explain why I have taken my stance on this. This can be found by clicking on the 1916-18 link button and there you will see the Divisional histry broken down into easily read, chronological chapters.

Cheers

Des

[Gunboat]

Des

Thanks for that I will follow it up and have a look.

I was aware that mass (es) were held at various times in the division as the makeup of the division had altered.

I also read somewhere (i can't remember the authority) that some of the protestants attended out of respect for the RC Chaplain who was held in high regard for his personal bravery.

Best Regards

Gunboat

[Desmond7]

Gunboat - You are correct.

Father Doyle was held in the greatest possible respect by all ... although I think he was 16th Irish Division. Not at home so can't double check. But yes, there is a very clear tribute paid to him by Ulster Divisiuon soldiers.

Also it was a UVF man from Bushmills who brought Redmond in off the battlefield. His grave was recently properly marked after a campaign by Robert Thompson, the 'Grandad' of all NI war memorial researchers!

Des

[Gunboat]

Gunboat - You are correct.

Father Doyle was held in the greatest possible respect by all ... although I think he was 16th Irish Division. Not at home so can't double check. But yes, there is a very clear tribute paid to him by Ulster Divisiuon soldiers.

Also it was a UVF man from Bushmills who brought Redmond in off the battlefield. His grave was recently properly marked after a campaign by Robert Thompson, the 'Grandad' of all NI war memorial researchers!

Des

Lessons there for all of us.

[Chris_Baker]

Valmai Holt is a member of this forum, although she only visited for a short while some time ago. I dare say she would respond if alerted to it.

Des, having just caught up with this and read through the six pages, my advice would be to contact the Holts via the publishers and point out your concern.

Major & Mrs Holt have a website, with an email link. http://www.guide-books.co.uk/contact.html

It was mentioned above but just to confirm that the travel firm Holts Tours transferred ownership several years ago.

[Desmond7]

Thanks - I have sent an e-mail asking for the source of the information.

Des

[salesie]

An extract from “A Subaltern on the Somme” by Max Plowman (10th West Yorks). Perhaps us Yorkshiremen have a different "religious fervour" to the Irish?

"Of all people entitled to praise in these times I give the palm to the army commissariat. True they cannot feed five thousand on five loaves and two fishes, but after that miracle theirs comes second. Consider it. We have been wandering about in a foreign country for four months, and never till this moment have we known what it is to feel really short of food. When I remember that this battalion is one of thousands similarly mobile, and when I see the conditions under which we ask so punctually not only for our daily bread, but our regular meals, I marvel at the organisation which can respond promptly to such a demand.

Our principle food in the trenches is, of course, bully beef and bread, falling seldom to biscuits. But this is by no means all we have. Often enough there is that excellent tin of cooked meat and vegetables known familiarly as “Maconachie”: there is tea and sugar, and lately we have had plentiful supplies of good Australian jam, which came as a pleasant change from the nondescript variety known as “Tickler”.

At the moment I am reminded of these blessings by their absence. Yet even now there is half a loaf going. It has suffered too many hardships since it left the bakers to make it look appetising; and muddy and wet, it must wait till we see what happens to-night before it can be sure of reaching a human interior. Still, there it is. And water? There is still a drop in the bottom of the petrol-tin.

Oh, this water! The taste of water impregnated with petrol will carry me back here if I live for ever. It is a nauseous taste, and no doubt someone ought to be hanged for not washing out the spirit before adding the water. Still, it quenches thirst.

And then there’s rum. Rum of course is our chief great good. The Ark of the Covenant was never borne with greater care than is bestowed upon the large stone rum-jars in their passage through this wilderness. The popularity of rum increases, till the hour when it is served tends to become a moment of religious worship. After the divine pattern, its celebration is administered by priests in the presence of higher dignitaries. When these priests happen to be old-time N.C.O.s, they want watching, or the communicants are apt to go short, to the degradation of the priests.

There are men so devout they live for rum. I honestly believe some I know would commit suicide if the rum ration were withdrawn. And in truth the rum is good - fine, strong, warming stuff - the very concentrated essence of army-council wisdom."

Cheers - salesie.

[Audax]

I seem to remember that Sir John Keegan mentions alcohol in 'The Face of Battle' in his discussion 'towards a theory of combat motivation'.

[Desmond7]

As a matter of courtesy, I should inform Forum members that I have received a reply from the Holts, having put my own points to them directly. In the reply, they say that amendment of the phrasing will be considered for any future publication.

Since this was a private reply to myself, I do not intend to produce the remainder of the e-mail in its entirety.

I think the very fact that the Holts consider there is merit worthy of consideration in the points I put to them should bring closure to the issue.

Des

[John_Hartley]

Des

Good result there, mate.

Comes as no surprise that the Holts are happy to consider a change. Clearly responsible authors.

John

[stiletto_33853]

Des,

Good for you, nice result.

Andy

[salesie]

As a matter of courtesy, I should inform Forum members that I have received a reply from the Holts, having put my own points to them directly. In the reply, they say that amendment of the phrasing will be considered for any future publication.

Since this was a private reply to myself, I do not intend to produce the remainder of the e-mail in its entirety.

I think the very fact that the Holts consider there is merit worthy of consideration in the points I put to them should bring closure to the issue.

Des

Amen, to the end of a bit of a rum do.

Cheers - salesie.

[Hedley Malloch]

Des,

I would try to be a little more relaxed about it. Drink did feature quite strongly on all sides. Ferdinand Gilson, one of the last surving poilus, is rapidy emerging as the French Harry Patch. In a recent interview with the French press he is quoted as saying how his daily ration of red wine was seven litres - that's over 12 pints in proper money. Except for boy soldiers - they only got two litres a day. As one commentator noted 'no wonder the war lasted so long.' That's the French. On the German side, read Jünger: very strong drink frequently features in his accounts.

[Roxy]

Let's hope for less ambiguous wording in future. Well done, Des.

Roxy

[Desmond7]

It would now be my wish that this thread be re-named.

The Holts have now said they are to re-think and I believe it would be churlish of me not to recognise that fact.

I've been expressing a heartfelt view throughout this thread and my position has always remained the same.

I have no wish to claim a 'victory' in this case. Truly, I think the consideration given by forum members - both for and against - is a 'result' in itself.

Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that mistakes when made should be pointed out but when someone approaches the matter with an open mind, they deserve a modicum of respect.

In that light, I look back at the heading I gave this thread and think to myself 'he who is without sin etc.'

It is my intention to ask a moderator to re-title this thread to a more diplomatic ... "Holts should re-consider".

I trust you will all know me long enough by now to realise that I do so of my own free will and not for ANY other reason.

Des

[Chris_Baker]

Consider it done, Des

[SOMMESOLDIER]

Hi Des,

I have followed this thread with interest from the beginning, and am very pleased that you got a fair response to your concerns. I hope that the Holts do change the wording for future publications !!

Cheers

Tim.

[DaveBrigg]

In winter trenches, cowed and glum,

With crumps and lice and lack of rum,

He put a bullet through his brain,

No-one spoke of him again.

Sassoon

[rob elliott]

Des,

Having a vested interest in the ULSTER DIVISION as with yourself, i thought i would add my little bit.

As the leading Battalions of 109th Brigade were lying out in front of their own trenches for quite some time prior to the attack it is evident that the rum ration was issued early to these units.

Jim Donaghy of the 10th Inniskillings said he had his tot at 6:00am,before moving off.He also says his platoon recited the Lords Prayer twice and sang Hymns before getting into position [although they could hardly hear themselves].An indication of the values these men held.

Somehow i don't think that with the adrenalin buzz of lying out during an artillary barrage in no-mans land the effects of a little rum would last too long. These lads went on to storm the Schwaben Redoubt, i think without assistance of any spirit other than those they believed in.

For Interest-

Some facts regarding the sobrierty of Members of the 36th, in comparisson of Courts Marshalls for drunkenness between Battalions of the Division and other Irish units.

1st October 1916 to 28th February 1918.Tried for drunkenness.Total courts martial offences in brackets.

REGULARS

1st Inniskilling Fusiliers - 15 [total offences for this period-63]

2nd Royal Dublin Fusiliers-19 [93]

36th DIVISION

10th Inniskillings-4 [24]

14th Royal Irish Rifles -4 [18]

9th Royal irish rifles-9 [19]

The three Battalions combined compare with one battalion of regulars. With the 9th rifles supposedly being the most undisciplined of the 36th coming from the Industrial heart of West Belfast [shankill Road].

Quote from the 'IRISH REGIMENTS IN THE GREAT WAR-DISCIPLINE AND MORALE'.

'A final point worth stressing in regard to courts martial figures is that battalions of the 36th [uLSTER] Division generally had fewer men tried by courts martial than their counterparts in the 16th [iRISH] Division'.

Wonder why that was? less alcohol perhaps!

And this was after the dilution of the original make-up of the Division.

My point of view-The Victorians were right about Tommy!

Glad you got a response Des,lets see what they do!

Rob.

[salesie]

Ah, the poetry of the Great War - a great place to find the contemporary, but highly personal and thus subjective, thoughts of the men involved. Here's an anonymous and pretty sophisticated piece of fun from the Wipers Times (later the BEF Times). A Shakespearean Tommy contemplates a duckboard!

TOMMY: To be or not to be? That is the question.

Here's nature moulded by the hand of man,

To be a burden borne by his own fellow,

And placed again - a weight on nature's breast

To bear in turn he who had once it borne,

Thus ease his path to slay, or maim or take.

And yet methinks I'm wasting time, for here

Comes one whose voice has power to move the limbs

Of loit'rers.

SERGEANT: "Nah then! Hop it quick or else,

You'll find some F.P. waiting you, me lad."

TOMMY: Oh! Soft-blown zephyrs flavoured well with rum,

Waft o'er me when I see the sergeant come.

(MOVES ON)

Cheers - salesie (Anyway, I think it's funny)

Edited 10 January , 2006 by salesie