Holts should reconsider

[Jack Sheldon]

I thought I would just add a couple of quotes to demonstrate that remarks about the role drink played in the moments leading up to Zero hour are widespread in the literature - if only to show that even if the Holts' remark turns out to be unjustified as far as the 36th (Ulster) Division is concerned, they could have made a similar remark with regard to others. As far as 1 July 1916 is concerned, it is discussed, for example, in 'The Face of Battle' by John Keegan who, by the way, includes a section on p 239: 'Lieutenant Colonel Crozier, commanding the 9th Royal Irish Rifles...congratulated his cook sergeant on having bacon rashers, fried bread, jam and tea ready for his riflemen and a mixture of cold tea and lemon to go into their waterbottles for the trip across No Man's Land'

Keegan's remark about the rum ration is as follows: (p241) 'Some soldiers were also already out of their trenches, where the last thing everyone received was a strong tot of rum - Navy rum and extremely alcoholic. In the 11th Suffolks, two men who had got the teetotallers' share drank themselves insensible and could not be got to their feet again; and JFC Fuller, investigating a confusion in the Sherwood Foresters Brigade was told that the whole leading wave was drunk. He thought the story an exaggeration - which it almost certainly was- but knowing that, 'in many cases men deliberately avoided eating before a battle, for fear of being shot theough a full stomach' and discovering that 'through some error' the first line got the rum ration intended for the second as well as their own, he concluded that 'many of the men in the front line must have been drunk well before zero hour.' A strong tot of rum, whatever its functional effect, must have been particularly comforting to the men in those divisions whose commanders had decided to take them out of the trench to lie down in No Man's land before zero - the 8th, 36th, 46th, 56th and part of the 32nd'.

Martin Middlebrook in 'The First Day on the Somme' pp 113-114 , writes, 'Some units, for once, issued the men with as much rum as they wanted. Albert McMillan, looking round him in great excitement on his first morning in the trenches, was offered some, although he had never drunk it before. He took a large helping, which made him choke, but it cheered him up. Many of the younger soldiers had far too much rum, with predictable results: 'Now the first of many silly things happened. They had laced the tea with rum; the rum out there was the goods, real thick treacle stuff. I had one sip and, whoa, I wasn't going to make myself muzzy for the job we were going on. Some chaps drank and had some more. They were soon tiddly. Two of them lay on the floor completely out. A sergeant major was kicking them both as they lay there to bring them round, although to no purpose.' (Pte W J Senescall, The Cambridge Regiment). Some Bradford soldiers were very upset when a captain, who was known to be a strict teetotaller, tipped the surplus down a sump hole'.

Jack

[Desmond7]

Salesie - use of the word 'some' is unforgiveable too .. who were these 'some'?

Was it the Div. General/The Corps Commander?/ Rawlinson/Haig/ The Germans?

NO .. the 'some' = the opinions of the authors.

The Orange fervour/religious angle needs to be closely examined too.

For example, Middlebrook says 'Major Gaffkin waved his sash and roated 'no surrender' ...'

THis is what a member of Gaffikin's company had to say about this in 1966 ...

It was at this point that one of the battle’s legendary events took place. Major George Gaffikin, a company commander with the 9th Royal Irish Rifles (West Belfast Volunteers) could see that some of his men were shocked by the firestorm through which they would have to charge.

Middlebrook reported: "Gaffikin took off his orange sash, held it high for his men to see and roared ... ‘come on boys, no surrender!’ This action drew a whole crowd of men after him over no-man’s land."

Interestingly, Philip Orr, who performed an in-depth study of the Ulster Division’s actions on that day spoke to a veteran who angrily dismissed the above account as a ‘myth’.

Malcolm McKee, interviewed in the Belfast Telegraph of July 1966 when the battle’s fiftieth anniversary was marked, said: “What if Major Gaffikin waved an orange HANDKERCHIEF? It was our UNIT COLOUR... and even if he did shout about the ‘Twelfth of July’, who would have heard

him?”

Having said that, I'm not dodging these men's Orange connections, I've researched enough of them to be all too aware of their background. But I do tend to think that far too much legend has grown up about the attack. IMHO their first wave hit hard and hit fast and won the race to the German trenches. Pure and simple.

[Sue Light]

As a sideline, can I just point out that the Holts sold their interest in the tour company many moons ago, and it is now owned by Titan Tours. No connection at all now except the name.

Sue

[Desmond7]

Thanks Sue ..

I have amended my initial post to this effect. As I have already stated, I have been informed that the company formerly known as Holts Tours no longer subscribe to this version of events.

Des

[Sue Light]

Titan by name, Titan when wielding the writ!

Sue

[Terry Denham]

And the books are published by an entirely different company - Secker & Warburg who seem to have taken over the titles from Leo Cooper.

[Kate Wills]

Why is alcholic bravura any more offensive than Irish nationalism or religious fervour? In my opinion, all three so-called reasons demean the discipline and fighting spirit of these men and that the last sentence in the Holt's quote identifies this.

Cheers - salesie.

and those three might also be construed as racial stereotyping.

[Muerrisch]

Should I yield to temptation and contribute? Why not, it is [allegedly] a free country.

I just wonder who is going to read Holt and put the guide down with a revised [downwards] opinion of the soldiers, either in absolute terms, or in comparison with other formations. Can we imagine their ghosts being other than amused by our earnestness?

I have to say:

Holt was probably wrong to make his remarks without quoting evidence, but

Mountain

Molehill

and run for cover.

[BeppoSapone]

Oo-err, Kate, as a "Library" person, even in support of Des, I couldn't condone such acts. D'you know how many books are defaced, trashed or stolen each year? No, nor do I, but you know what I mean..... Mind you, the unnecessary snide stereotype in the quoted passage deserves action. Des's draft "disgusted of Ballymena" letter above may be what is required.

Jim

IMHO Joe Orton improved some boring books, rather than defaced them.

Didn't I read that certain examples are now on public display in the libraries in question?

[Gibbo]

Des

I have in front of me Holts Guide to the Somme (1999 reprint). The relevent passage:-

"...They were the only soldiers north of the Albert-Bapaume road to pierce the German lines . Some say that their achievement was due to a mixture of Irish nationalism, alcoholic bravura and religious fervour. Whatever the reason, it was a magnificient feat of arms."

I have the 2003 edition, published by Leo Cooper, & this phrase remains in it. It's on p. 77.

[Desmond7]

OK Langley .. we'll take it to the logical conclusion. This is how it would look if applied right across the battlefield.

Right along the line, thousands upon thousands of British soldiers attacked the German lines.

Every unit was given a hefty rum ration to ensure they would leave their trenches and face death in a haze of high proof spirit.

Fuelled by alcohol which fed their courage, they advanced into a hail of German fire .... their bravery was unquestionable but one has to wonder at the management of an army which sent its men to fight and die in a state of alcoholic bravura (or words to that effect...)

Blah Blah - that the way you want history written?

Mountains are, as you know, geological features which have stood for millions of years. I fully intend to make a mini - molehill out of this pile of cr ap.

Then I'll drive a steamroller over it.

Edited 4 January , 2006 by Desmond7

[Jim Clay]

IMHO Joe Orton improved some boring books, rather than defaced them.

Could be right, Beppo - certainly not every book written deserves reverence

Didn't I read that certain examples are now on public display in the libraries in question?

I wouldn't be surprised - librarians (or as their 21st century masters might call 'em, Information Industry Operatives) are a quirky lot, allegedly.

Jim

ps - "Life is like a manure sandwich" - could have been said by Forest Gump, but if it did, what did he mean? And if it didn't, where did it come from? Just curious....

[Desmond7]

The quote begins 'Irish individualism' - for clarification purposes.

Edited 5 January , 2006 by Desmond7

[salesie]

and those three might also be construed as racial stereotyping.

That was my whole point, Kate - so why take offence at the alchoholic inference alone?

John, I didn't say, "if your quote is accurate," to cast doubt on its veracity. I simply couldn't understand Des's outburst IF that was the quote he was referring to; so, I asked "if" to qualify the context of the rest of my post.

Des, I'm a Yorkshireman but am no stranger to the Island of Ireland; as an ex-regular, I've travelled streets in the North, and, depending on which streets I found myself on, I would be wearing either the "right or wrong suit." Also, I've been married to a Cavan Lass for some 25 years and spent plenty of time in the South (but never returned to the North when the choice was mine). Because of these experiences, I can truly understand Lloyd George when he said, "If we find a solution to the Irish problem, the Irish will simply invent a new problem."

For the life of me, Des, I can't understand your outburst and still believe the Holt's were praising the Ulster Division (and rightly so). But we could play semantics all day, so I'll finish by saying that, in my opinion, Orangemen would take far greater offence at being called "Nationalists" than "Alchoholics" (not that I believe the Holt's said that these men were either).

Cheers - salesie.

[Desmond7]

As for semantics ... alcoholic bravura. Means one thing to me.

Praising them? Sounds as if they making excuses for why they did so well militarily.

And the answer to that one is not found in drink, religion or politics which mean nowt to an MG or a srapnel bullet. They did well because their commanding officer got the first wave well out into NML before zero. They rushed in like assault troops and did their job.

As for being offended ... I dare say they would have been peeved at being called Irish Nationalists but I would reckon that ANY unit whose epitaph (for this was their graveyard) was 'they pierced the German line due to alcoholic bravura' would have every justification in being offended.

Rant over. Good to clear the passages for the New Year to come! I shall now become my polite charming self again.

Best wishes all

Des

Edited 5 January , 2006 by Desmond7

[Paul Hederer]

I come to this thread without a dog in the fight--just an observation.

Isn't calling it "Dutch Courage," just as bad as what Mr. Holt is being accused of?

Paul

[Desmond7]

I agree - in my new charming mode I will now withdraw the term 'Dutch Courage' .

I shall now leave others to interpret what 'alcoholic bravura' could be construed as.

But of course 'Dutch Courage' refers to the 'courage' provided by Gin .. which was of course, a Dutch spirit. Just so our Dutch friends know I'm not accusing them of alcoholic bravura.

Edited 4 January , 2006 by Desmond7

[shaymen]

I shall now leave others to interpret what 'alcoholic bravura' could be construed as.

Alcoholic - person affected by alcohol

Bravura - A display of boldness or daring

So - A display of boldness or daring by person or persons affected by alcohol.

Des - IMHO you have a point and are right to be pi**ed off.

Glyn

[Paul Hederer]

I agree - in my new charming mode I will now withdraw the term 'Dutch Courage' .

I shall now leave others to interpret what 'alcoholic bravura' could be construed as.

But of course 'Dutch Courage' refers to the 'courage' provided by Gin .. which was of course, a Dutch spirit. Just so our Dutch friends know I'm not accusing them of alcoholic bravura.

Desmond,

Thanks for the clarification...I'd never heard the term before.

Best Regards,

Paul

[mcderms]

Just FYI - the term 'Dutch Courage' actually has nothing to do with booze. It refers to the fact that the Dutch were the only sailors willing to dock at London (bringing much needed supplies) during the Great Plague. Harbour fees at the Port Of London have been waived ever since in respect of this.

Not to say that my Dutch friends don't like a drop but couldn't resist clearing up a misnomer.

[Borden Battery]

From the Official Canadian source ... here are the only three comments regarding rum and drunkeness and I have bolded the text. However, I am researching other sources which I know will make reference to problems of drunkeness in the Canadian Corps.

I am aware of alcohol and behaviour problems of the CEF when out of the Line but have not come across any credible references when "Up the Line" and part of combat. VD was also a related problem when back in Blighty.

Given the conditions and the sheer number of men of different characters involved, one should expect a significant number of individual and small unit problems. However, I cannot believe there was a systemic problem with specific battations or divisions.

Borden Battery

=================================================

Regulations for the Canadian Militia dating back to 1893 prohibited alcoholic liquor in camps, and Valcartier had been "dry". But almost immediately upon taking over command of the Canadians General Alderson had seen the need for establishing wet canteens in the camps. He reported that the controlled sale of beer under military supervision would put a stop to troops going to the neighbouring villages where they "get bad liquor, become quarrelsome and then create disturbances". In spite of protests from temperance organizations in Canada, the new arrangements proved wise. Nearby villages were placed out of bounds except to men with passes. A rebate of 7-1/2 per cent on sales of beer enriched unit funds by $7,500 during November and December. Undoubtedly one of the most important factors contributing to the maintenance of morale was the allowance for all ranks of up to six days' leave, with a free ticket to anywhere in the British Isles. While many flocked to London (where the disorderly conduct of some cut down the number granted leave), others found their way into English homes to form permanent friendships and to enjoy the warm hospitality extended to the visitors from overseas.

Source: Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War - Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919, Colonel G. W. L. Nicholson, C.D., Army Historical Section, p 36

The misery of Salisbury Plain was being repeated, and the troops had no means of shielding themselves against the cold and the wet. Although men stood for days in thigh-deep water, there were not enough high rubber waders to go round. Trench shelters caved in, leaving no protection from the teeming skies. Conditions were little better back in billets, where roofs leaked and it was all but impossible to coax more than a noxious-smelling smoke out of the damp coke and charcoal that came up with the rations.

In the trenches the daily rum ration of half a gill (1/64 of a gallon) helped to ward off the ill effects of wet clothing and exposure to cold. Its distribution was regulated by Trench Orders, which directed that the rum should always be kept under the personal charge of the company commander and issued only in the presence of an officer. Men undergoing punishment for drunkenness would receive no rum for 14 days after the offence, except for medical reasons.

Source: Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War - Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919, Colonel G. W. L. Nicholson, C.D., Army Historical Section, p 110

The Attack Goes In, 9 April

As darkness gathered, the infantry battalions began moving forward to their assembly areas, guided by stakes marked with luminous paint. Some used the newly completed subways to reach the front lines; others, forced to cross open ground, suffered casualties from the enemy's usual machine-gun and artillery harassing fire. At first the night was bright with a moon just past the full, but the sky clouded later, cloaking the movements of the assembling troops. Through lanes cut in the Canadian wire the forward companies filed into no man's land to occupy the shell-holes and narrow ditches from which they would assault. All ranks had been cautioned to observe strict silence, and the assembly was completed, in some cases to within a hundred yards of the enemy's outposts, with only a few local alarms being given. Enemy signal centres in forward and back areas were special targets in the later phase of the preliminary bombardment. The destruction of most of the German telephone lines by shellfire meant that such reports had to be relayed by runner; and none would reach the rear in time for a general alarm to be raised. All units were in position by 4:00 a.m., every man having received a rum ration and a hot meal.

Source: Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War - Canadian Expeditionary Force, 1914-1919, Colonel G. W. L. Nicholson, C.D., Army Historical Section, pp 229-230

[truthergw]

Just FYI - the term 'Dutch Courage' actually has nothing to do with booze. It refers to the fact that the Dutch were the only sailors willing to dock at London (bringing much needed supplies) during the Great Plague. Harbour fees at the Port Of London have been waived ever since in respect of this.

Not to say that my Dutch friends don't like a drop but couldn't resist clearing up a misnomer.

Interesting explanation. My Concise Oxford Dictionary says " false courage gained from alcohol". I have to say that in my own opinion, that is how most people would understand the phrase.

[Desmond7]

Dwight - thanks for the post. The quantities, in my opinion, speak for themselves.

McDerms ... not sure about that plague story.

I've googled like mad and I stand by my explanation for Dutch courage!!!

Let googling commence.

Here's one I googled earlier ..

http://home.wish.net/~sparhawk/taal.htm

[Kevin O'Marah]

Desmond7

I understand how you feel, having seen the Zulu film for the umpteenth time and how they represent Private Hook?

Kevin

[Jon Miller]

Standing in Des's shoes, I would read the text as suggesting the Ulster men would not have been capable of achieving what they did without partaking of enough alcohol to bolster their spirits, (which would have been a lot more than the normal rum ration), otherwise why mention it in the first place?